Episode 115: Harnessing Trust, Motivation, and Emotions for Team Performance

This episode examines the components of building and leading high-performing teams with guests Alison Grieve and Jenni Miller, experts in transforming team dynamics at some of the world's leading companies, including PepsiCo and ING.

Alison and Jenni share practical advice on the critical roles of trust, motivation, and emotional intelligence in team success, as well as advice on fostering resilience, enhancing virtual and hybrid collaborations, and creating a culture of accountability and empowerment.

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Episode Highlights

• The importance of understanding and managing emotions within teams.
• How daily and significant changes within teams can affect team performance.
• The responsibility of leaders and team members in recognizing and managing emotions.
• The need for us to recognize our own blind spots and develop better self-awareness.
• How unchecked assumptions can lead to misunderstandings and conflicts.
• Recognizing that what motivates one team member may not motivate another.
• Feedback as a Tool for Growth: The significance of creating a culture of constructive feedback to foster personal and team growth.
• How shared experiences strengthen team bonds and trust.
• Concrete strategies to build trust and improve team performance.

Alison’s and Jenni’s views on the greatest unmet wellbeing need at work today

Alison
“I think isolation—so, talking about meetings, going into meetings, and nobody's got their video on their screen, so you can't see them. People are not communicating very well. They're just sending WhatsApp or Slack messages and emails. They don't meet physically. I think isolation then tends to make people feel that it's just about the task, and work becomes a tool because fun at work often comes from having solved a problem or overcome a challenge with someone else. And so, if we start to lose those, then I think it's really sad.”

Jenni
“I was going to fully agree with what Alison said. I think it is the number one challenge that organizations are wrestling with at the moment in the debate about whether hybrids work or whether it's back to the office. I don't think it's actually a location issue. I think it's an isolation issue. So what people are picking up on is that people aren't as motivated or as productive as they could be if they're just working from home. That, the working from home bit, is not the issue. It's the fact that managers and teams aren't putting in mechanisms to make people feel still connected to the organization. You address that, and I imagine it's going to open up something really powerful and positive.”

What "working with humans" means to Alison and Jenni

Alison
“There is a warmth and creativity that is so empowering [to that phrase], and inspiring and energizing. That's what it's about.”

Jenni
“What's the alternative? It's working with robots and artificial intelligence. I'm hearing a lot of concern from people, asking, ‘Are they going to replace me? What does that mean for my job going forward?’

Actually, the beauty of working with humans, as opposed to AI, is in solving really complex problems together, doing something for the first time that nobody's ever done before, being creative, and coming up with new ideas. Like, ‘I may well be proven wrong, but I don't think that robots and AI can do that.’ So, I believe that's what keeps us special and powerful as a species—all of that.”

Resources

Follow:  Alison and Jenni on LinkedIn
Visit:  Management Dynamics
Read:  Leading Edge: Strategies for developing and sustaining high-performing teams

Full Transcript

Note: This is an unedited AI-generated transcription. Please excuse any errors or inconsistencies.

Michael Glazer 
Can you talk about a common emotional hurdle that teams encounter?

Alison Grieve 
I think you know, if we think about what causes emotions in us, you know, something a change. And it can be tiny things or big things. They'll trigger emotions. And there's small changes that happen in teams every day and big ones. And the emotional response you'll get is all about that. And I think that's why we really, when we were writing the book, came up with the dynamics of high performing teams, because we're talking about teams are dynamic, they never stayed the same. And part of what's happening with those dynamics is the churn up of emotions in the people in the team. And so I think all leaders don't get enough information really to understand that's actually one of the key things of being a manager is how do you manage the emotions of everybody, because everything's changing all the time, even at a cellular level in the individuals in the team?

Michael Glazer 
So your point is that it is actually managers roles to be an active participant in what you called it managing emotions. Can you unpack a little bit? What does it mean to manage your team members? Emotions?

Alison Grieve 
Yeah. Well, I would also add, I don't think it's just the managers role, either. I think it's everybody in the team, we, you know, it's part of our emotional intelligence, which is understanding what triggers our own emotions? And is that something we need to do something about? And we have some choices? And also to understand that the things that we're doing impact other people? And what do we want to do about that, too. So I think it's a key thing about learning how to build and maintain good social relationships, as well as, you know, building and maintaining your own social and personal integrity. Otherwise, it's a problem.

Michael Glazer 
I'm assuming you're referring to blind spots and self-awareness when it comes to emotional intelligence? Yeah,

Alison Grieve 
I think I mean, there's some people who naturally got a little bit more than others, but it's something that people can learn and, you know, are aware of it, they go, Oh, I never knew that's what people thought, you know. So I think it's just understanding that we are all looking at the world through our own lens. And sometimes we don't even understand what that lens is. So that personal understanding of these are the filters I'm putting on the world. And I can change them. So I could start to have a different perspective. I mean, it's quite a developmental step for most of us as individuals, which is to start challenging our own assumptions about what we're noticing about things and what we're assuming about things. But then also, we place all of those assumptions on everybody else. So you know, if you're a team member, or the leader of a team, you're looking at the world from your own experience.

And, you know, there's lots of talk about diversity and inclusion and all of that and how you need to change your lens. Well, I think it's wider than that. It's actually a real self-awareness piece, about how people can be perceiving the world differently from you reacting to things differently from you, and it's not right or wrong. It's just different and there are polarities, but until you start to question and be curious, you're not going to be able to find a resolution or a way forward. So I think it is a blind spot for many of us and for us working with teams and leaders and individuals. It's a really wonderful experience to have when you start to open people up to that. And they go, Oh, I never thought of it that way. I didn't realize that about myself. Oh, my gosh, what an assumption I'd be making this so long.

Jenni Miller 
Yeah, I was smiling as you're saying that alley, because I was remembering a video that I love to show participants to illustrate this point, which is, you know, the trust fall, where you fall backwards into somebody's arms and they catch they hopefully catch you, right. And it's a, I presume a dad and his two daughters or a daughter and a friend doing this trustful. The dogs behind the camera, and he's filming the two girls doing this. He's like, Lauren's gonna catch you, Lauren's gonna catch you. You can fall and the girl falls, Lauren's behind her, and the girl falls forward. Of course, Lauren's not there to catch her. I'm imagining, you know, the years of therapy that this poor girl has been in ever since that video was recorded.

But I think it really illustrates the assumptions that we all make about, you know, when we communicate something, what the other person is going to understand that little girl assumed that if she fell forward, somehow magically, Lauren would still catch her, even though she wasn't there ready to catch her, even though Lauren, Lauren assumed that wrongly that she was going to fall backwards. And the dad assumed that both girls knew that you had to fall backwards in order to do this exercise, and then safely. So I think it's just yeah, it's just a lovely example of how we all make assumptions all the time based on how we see the world. And when you add up all the assumptions that are being made in a team, you know, that's a lot of Lauren's not going to get a few moments,

Michael Glazer 
It’s easy to talk about, well, we just make ourselves aware of our assumptions, and then we start challenging them. But it's not really that easy. First, we have to figure out what are the assumptions that we're making, or that are being made on the team and then do something with them? So can you kind of step me through the process of how do you go from being unaware, and having that blind spot to actually being in the position to make positive change or progress on it?

Jenni Miller 
I think it's a step towards process rather than 100 mile an hour process. So and I think when teams realize that it makes them breathe a bit easier, they don't have to go from zero to 100. Overnight, they can take I actually the best way for any development to happen is one step at a time I talk about edging towards something, rather than trying to change everything overnight. I think that enables teams to go Yeah, okay, we can do that I can edge towards something, you know, I don't not going to get there straight away. And without some challenges along the way. But what would be the 2% of difference that you would make? Yeah, that in the long term enables you to hit the move, as opposed to missing it completely.

Michael Glazer 
So yeah, one of the assumptions that I've found comes up time and again, in my work working with leaders, is they assume that what motivates them at work? Is the same thing that motivates the people around them at work. Absolutely. Yeah. And usually, the way that they find this out, if it's not, through some kind of formal training, is just feedback. They need candid feedback to be able to form the insights to recognize that things are the way things look, from their own point of view are different from the way they look from somebody else's point of view. So having a smart feedback process, and a safe speed feedback process can often facilitate that, how does that compare with your experiences?

Alison Grieve 
I think that's very frequently our experience. In fact, I would say that sometimes people don't even know how to articulate either what motivates them. So it's not something we wake up every day going, yeah, yeah, I'm going to be motivated by this unless you've actually thought about it, and spoken it out. So some of the things that we do with teams early on is getting them to talk about their values, and what's important to them, and why it's important to them at work, because that starts to help us get underneath some of the things that they find enriching about being at work.

And we talk about how you can apply values and things but we're really narrowing it down to the team and work what is that? And you always get a kaleidoscope of values. So different people have different things, but as they talk about them, they will say some common themes. And you know, so somebody might say something about trust, and someone else will say something about respect, or equality of different things, but there'll be some common threads that you can see link those two together. But they've got a different way of articulating it. And so people can start to see the similarities, but then also the differences. And that can really also help us understand why some people find certain aspects of the role interesting, and other bits, less interesting. And then as a team, you can then start to think about how you've shared the load or support people to get the things that help them fulfill their values on a daily basis.

Jenni Miller 
So does give me an example. Oh, yeah, give me a nice example of that we've we walk the talk, do these things on ourselves and our own team as well as other teams. And we did the values exercise last year, sometime, I think it was with our team and discovered that one of our team members is his number one value at work is connection. But we're a completely remote business that he means personal in person connection, right, he wants to have face time with people in a table, completely remote, we don't have an office. We're working all over the place all the time. And so knowing that helped us to change how we were and how we enable him to work, so that he can fulfill that value more, more of the time.

So for example, we gave him a pasture we work, he now spends three days a week, roughly, each week, in an office with other people, warm bodies are enough. And we will spend time, ideally with him as well in person a couple of times a month, if we can, and then that might just be working alongside each other. Rather than having a specific meeting about anything, we're just going to be in the same space. Alia you and Peter get together and just work alongside each other virtually don't know, which will drive me nuts did a

Alison Grieve 
bit of that this morning, actually. So we had a 15 minute meeting with a client and then they left. And then we chatted for a few minutes. And then we both just got on with our work, but on the screen together. And I said to him, I need to leave now to come on the call, but on this call. But otherwise, I don't mind having your screen on. And if it gives you fulfill some level of connectedness for him, Sonia Yeah, and every so often, we can just pick up and just say something. So it's the closest you can get to working with but you know, back to helping people fulfill their values. We didn't know that before.

Jenni Miller 
And so there's a whole array made a lot of sayings, didn't it, Ali? Oh, that's why you want to do this. Yeah. So that's where you get demotivated when you don't see us for a long time, because neither of us need that. We're very happy and have worked for seven years in this environment where we are we see each other more on screen than we do in person might get together once a month to actually see each other in person. We don't need that. Yeah, not the same way that he does. So yeah, that was a aha moment for us. Yeah, that was important to the team.

Michael Glazer 
It's an interesting idea that you're using values, not necessarily, in this case, as a way to create some kind of sense of belonging or engagement with the team. But in your parlance, if I've got it right, is to inform what kinds of routines make sense on the team, as well as to help guide some of the aspects of how you build and maintain relationships amongst team members.

Jenni Miller 
I think it's both of those things. I think it is also about belonging as well. Yeah. So you know, one of the things we talked about is how similarities and differences are both really important in teams, you need to have a sense of these people are a bit like me in some way, even if it's just tiny bits. And even if it's just perceptions, right, we've got a connection of some sort. And that might just be we're trying to work towards the same thing, or, you know, we share the same passion about something, whatever it might be, but differences also important, because otherwise you get group thing, and you get navel gazing.

And we're doing the same thing over and over again, we want diversity of thought and a team as much as we want, you know, a sense of belonging and team. So how do you balance those? That's a polarity, isn't it? You have the two competing things that could be pulling you in very different directions. How do you have both of that of those? Yeah, how do you have similarities and differences? And I think values that do that beautifully. You know, I don't share that desire for connection that pieces but I get it for him. Like I really respect him wants to be able to fulfill that for because I know that's when he's absolutely best.

Michael Glazer 
Yeah, it also brings up this being able to do this as in your words for him, brings up this concept in my mind of flexibility. And being able to change how we work not only for circumstances, there's a crisis, there's an urgent deadline, there's a certain type of client demand, but also for the people who were working together and that kind of color flexibility or maybe even agility is something that I would say feeds higher team performance. Would you agree with that?

Jenni Miller 
Absolutely. I think the first one that comes to mind, as I said earlier isn't you know, this is everybody's responsibility is the leader needs to be really flexible about how they motivate each individual team member, you know, everybody's different. Everybody's complex, everybody has different motivations to being able to treat people differently. So that you can, you know, really tap into that motivation with them is really important. But then team members also showing that that flexibility to flex their working style, depending on the person who's in front of them, and who they're connecting with, and flexing how they show up in a team meeting versus how they show up in a one to one so that they have more impacts in really positive way. Yeah, really crucial.

Michael Glazer 
What are one or two things that leaders can do to foster the type of environment between team members, particularly when the need the leader is not looking so that the team members do proactively flex toward one another?

Alison Grieve 
Well, they have to get away from the I'm the leader, and I'm the center of the universe thinking and create a team spirit…If I were to say that the leader then just becomes another member of the team, every member in the team has a role. And yes, the leader has a very particular role, they have bit more authority, maybe a lot more authority, they have access to more resources, potentially more information, and there's certain decisions that they will only be able to take themselves.

So there are some particular responsibilities of the leader, and they have their own special role. But they are a member of the team. And I think that's an important thing to get them to think about we, as a team, it also shifts the burden of ownership and accountability for the team's results, and how the team operate, and their behaviors and all of that. Achieving everybody's motivation levels, and everybody's wellbeing becomes a shared thing across the whole team.

So rather than the team are going, Oh, leader, I've got too much work, and I'm not feeling great. And it's you need to fix this, you need to go and talk to them, whoever they're more, they need to sort this out all of that stuff needs to be because it becomes a way. So it's not just the leader doing it. And I think that shift in mindset about we can be really successful together. The leader cannot do it without their team. I mean, a leader with no followers, and no team is…

Michael Glazer 
…a person who is taking a walk by him or herself.

Alison Grieve 
So they need everybody there. So it becomes we are going to do this. And you know, they can't drag everybody on the walk to use your analogy. I mean, they could do pay as strong now, I don't know what's, yeah, it's not high performance, that's for sure. Whereas getting everybody to want to run and be part of it. And to carry everybody along with them, is a very different story. And that's where the leaders mindset needs to shift, because then everything they do, is about not taking all the ownership on themselves, but shining the light back on the team and saying, you're part of this to your adult, I'm not your father, your dad, I'm not going to fix it myself, we're going to do it together. And you know, we're all in it together. And I think that is the real thing for the leaders to start to do to then get the connectedness and then allow people just to get together and sort out what they need to do to get going. Don't need to approve everything.

Michael Glazer 
I want to pick up on this notion of connectedness, because in my work helping teams improve their effectiveness. I often notice that clients, the leaders who are my clients failed to recognize how different factors especially when we're trying to address a problem can be interrelated. And the factors which can seem isolated to the leader are actually or can actually be connected in pretty complex ways. So you're both nodding, how come how I'm guessing this is common for you.

Jenni Miller 
Yeah, I would totally. For example, it came to my mind was a leader who says they want their team to debate things more and to, you know, solve complex problems together. But the team doesn't trust each other. So they haven't made that connection. Actually, in order to have those lovely things like prop solving problems together and debating faith. You have to have really good solid levels of trust in a team. First, you know, you can't get that's an example of going from zero to 100. Right? You haven't got trust there first, the 100 is not gonna happen without you know, all falling apart around you and actually making things worse. So, yeah, you've got to start with the basics. First you got to stand at the foundation level and then work your way towards something that's better. And that's a hard message to hear for a lot of leaders because they're impatient. And they want things to change now, can't they just do it? You know, let's just do some feedback exercises and get them, you know, getting into it with each other. And like, No, you're gonna break the team promise you. Let's do this step by step, and women will have a healthier outcome.

Michael Glazer 
Is there an anecdote or a client engagement that you've had, where you've taken them through this, they want some type of performance, some type of result related to their performance, but it's a trust issue that is interfering with their ability to do that, and kind of kind of step by step explain how do you begin the process and get to what they ultimately want? And I'm curious to hear at the end, and I know I'm adding them just piling on things to ask you here is, in the end of the leaders realize actually speed as a result, and not a tactic to get the result.

Jenni Miller 
I mean, I'm just thinking of pretty much every single team, I think the exception to this rule, I can't think of one moment, I think it's always about trust, actually, to varying extents, right, some teams, you know, there's a huge issue with trust happening here. And it's going to take a lot of work to get that to shift. With other teams, it's, you know, there's just a little bit more to be had here, before they get that foundation in place, and then they can take it to the next level.

So I think the first thing that we try and do with teams is trying to work out where they're at on that spectrum. So you know, what, to what extent do they have, we talked about two levels of trust, reliability based trust is the foundation, you know, I can trust you to do what you say you're going to do, I can rely upon you to turn up when you say you're going to turn up, I can predict your behavior to a certain extent, because, you know, based on past behavior, or how much I know about what you like, and what motivates you and your personality, this is the foundation, right?

You can kind of get a sense of what it takes to build up. If it's absent in a team, what does it take to build up reliability based trust in a team, it's just talk to each other get to know each other a little bit better beyond task. So you know, understand each other's personality a little bit more understand what strengths you're each bringing, what do you enjoy doing? What are your motivations and so on, have a better understand and be curious about it. You know, this is in service of the task. It's not just a means to an end, it's not just some soft and fluffy stuff that we're doing just for the fun of it. You know, it has a purpose.

Michael Glazer 
When you suggest those actions, because they in the end, they...

Jenni Miller 
Yeah, resistance is futile, after all. So, yeah, it's, I think, intuitive. People do understand that they get stuff done through relationships, that actually, there's only so much you can do without good relationships.

Michael Glazer 
Would you say that the reliable first move when you work with teams where trust is actually at a deficit, or has been recently damaged? Can you still start there?

Jenni Miller 
Yeah, I think you tread carefully with it. So there's a lot to be done around, getting a team to acknowledge the fact that trust is an issue, you're just even having that conversation sometimes can be the first hurdle, but they need to overcome to go, yeah, we've had our challenges in the past, but we want to do things differently going forward. We want it to be you know, better than it is. And so you're talking about the elephant, what I call the elephant in the room becomes a really important thing there. And acknowledging if there are other elements, elephants as well.

So I think when we're you know, when Ali and I are working with teams, we're always thinking about how do we edge towards building trust, every exercise is about building trust even more, in some way, you know, depending on where on the spectrum, that team is falling,

Michael Glazer 
Can you give an example or two of low on the trust spectrum -- especially on the reliability part of the spectrum? What's the structure and activity, a dialogue that will help teams edge forward? And then can you get one from further down that continuum midway beyond and what that looks like?

Jenni Miller 
So many exercises you can use for balance exercises.

Alison Grieve 
And to be honest, yeah, to start with teams who are really low on trust, because she know it goes really deep, without feeling vulnerable. So, you know, people are sharing some very strong parts of themselves, and something that gives people indicators about each other, and some knowledge about each other that they wouldn't have known before. But it's not something that's fraught with rights or wrongs. And, you know, so somebody might criticize me for having these.

I think it's a good one to start off with, when you're really starting to get them to understand each other and how they're different. because your lack of trust is because you're different from me, you've got a different agenda you're doing thing I don't understand you, I'm threatened by you, on some subliminal level, so you won't trust them? And how do we start to help people connect with people I trust it, which is because I can see that, you know, we've got something together. So we need to connect those things. And that's why it needs to be small. You know, the I just going in and saying, right, by the end of this, we're going to do trust for them, we'll all trust, it's not going to work. It's a slow labor.

Jenni Miller 
So to me, I just want to say, that doesn't get them to trust each other. I'm just gonna tell them, they just need to trust each other. No, it doesn't work.

Alison Grieve 
Like that's not how human beings work. We don't work like that. No. So people, you know, people have to have time. And it needs to be proven to them. So it's gonna happen on a neural pathway level, this is an emotional thing. So it needs to take time. Yeah. And

Michael Glazer 
What about an example of a trust building activity or dialogue? For a team where trust is much further down that continuum? What would you do with them?

Jenni Miller 
One of our favorites when it you have to be very careful with this one. So I think this is an assessment of is the team ready for this? Will this builds trust or will it erode it in some way, if you set up quite carefully, is what we call hotseat feedback, where we get an IF teams we're not quite ready for the full version of this, we might do just an appreciative version of this for teams who are relatively solid on the reliability base trust, certainly no major issues going on there.

So if you know they wanted to really ready for building vulnerability based trust is getting them to give feedback in front of the team, not just one on one, but in front of each other about what they do really well. And what they could do to have even more impact what they could change to have even more impact on the team. So it's in service of the team that feedback, it's not just you know, it's not just about how we work together, it's how the impact you're having on the team as a whole. So there's benefit to everybody hearing that.

And there's something I've run a few times with teams recently. And what teams really appreciate about it is feeling seen and heard by their colleagues, it really like, Whoa, I didn't realize you'd see me do that. And you really appreciate it that is powerful. And how often people kind of have some inkling that this is a development need for them. And they also feel seen, because somebody's noticed that they need to develop that as well. That's really powerful, too. And now we're suddenly in it together. And we're supporting each other in our development, and you care enough about me to tell me and give me this feedback. It's hard to give somebody feedback like that. Yeah. So that's a really powerful exercise that we love.

Alison Grieve 
It works like a dream. But it takes a while to set it up, because it needs to be very safe. And you also, it's also forcing people to think about good quality feedback. So it's done very respectfully, of if you're going to give somebody feedback, you need to prepare it. So this is not some off the cuff. Yeah, thing. So everybody spent time preparing it. And then when it comes over, of course, it lands beautifully. And, yeah, to Jenny's point, it warms the soul. And so it really done well. It takes teams, I don't know another 10 steps forward in trust.

Jenni Miller 
And how vulnerable is that being sitting that they have hot seat, we have a hot seat. It's beautiful. It's the most comfortable chair in the room. And it's, you know, people have trepidation. It's also hard. So like, people are like, I don't know, if I want to sit there. But you know, once they've been there, there's that kind of sense of right. That's brilliant. And, yeah, it just yeah, it just creates as I said, there's the warm fuzzies. Whilst it's a really vulnerable exercise as well.

Michael Glazer 
And I can imagine it's not just doing it, but the process of how it's done is important. For example, the first person, I bet it makes a big difference who the first person on the hot seat is.

Jenni Miller 
Yeah, absolutely. I'm usually quite permissive eyed about you Allah, he might be different. You might approach this differently for me, but I often get who would like to go first, you know? And, you know, last time I ran it, someone's literally ran to the front of the room. Like I'm doing it first. It's like, is that to get out of the way anyway?

Michael Glazer 
Yeah, first to go first to relax. Yeah, exactly.

Jenni Miller 
So you know, I'm quite permissive with how I approach it. Often I will have contracted with the leader beforehand, their role in this because, you know, they're also going to do exactly what everybody else does in that exercise. They're going to sit in the hot seat, they're going to get some feedback so they're but their response to that is going to be watched the most by everybody in the room. It's gonna be hardest to give them feedback as well, isn't it? You know, giving a boss feedback is never comfortable. So yeah, I like putting them last If I can that sort of happened, yeah.

Michael Glazer 
Yeah, if it's done, well, then the team will learn something about their capacity for high quality feedback to one another. Exactly.

Jenni Miller 
It's got many levels there, essentially, because you're also teaching them how to give their people feedback as well, their direct reports, you know, that I've had for that to be really high quality. And the feeling that you get when you get that really high-quality feedback is really powerful. So they're experiencing it on multiple levels.

Michael Glazer 
I would say there's one other thing that we haven't talked about that pays a dividend to teams here. And you please tell me what you think, is creating a highly emotionally charged shared experience. Because most people have some feeling, whether they're on the giving and receiving side of feedback, particularly when it's the constructive kind. But everybody has been going through that and realizing, hey, that was actually pretty good. And the joy and the emotional journey from before you receive it to after you receive it is something for the team to just gather around. Well, what would you say about that?

Jenni Miller 
I think those experiences are very powerful for teams. I think if you bear in our world, we have to be very careful about we how we try and engineer situations like that. They can also be very dangerous. They can break trust, I'm thinking of, you know, the Bear Grylls type, you know, go into the woods and, you know, eat worms for a few nights and campout. And, yeah. Yeah, it's my firstly, my idea of absolute hell. And it really would test me and you would see my absolute worst traits in when I'm tired, hungry and cold. Get it? So it'd be it would be very exposing. And quite, I'd have to be very vulnerable to do it.

The challenge, I think with those situations is, how do you make sure you're creating a environment where everybody can take part? Yeah, so inclusion in those situations, everybody needs to be very physically able to, to do an exercise like that most teams have at least one person who would really struggle to take part fully in an environment like that, without it kind of potentially being dangerous for them. So so how do you set up those kinds of experiences really well, that's going to enable the whole team to take part equally, but also still give them enough challenge. You overcome?

Michael Glazer 
What? How do you set it up, so that successful?

Jenni Miller 
Ali, I'm sure you've got opinions on this one as well. But personally, I try not to create fake situations like that, I might give them team challenges that they won't, that's more about holding up the mirror to how they operate on a day-to-day basis. In a 20-minute exercise. For example, I mentioned that before we came on the call about getting teams to make towers out of various bits, pieces. That's an example of a challenge that you could set a team and observing it as a facilitator role can be really powerful doing an hour long debrief afterwards really crucial to get to the stuff that came up in the team today. To what extent does that reflect reality? You know, having that debrief of it, but my preference actually would be to observe them in real life.

I prefer to be they come across challenges every day. Like, let's pull that apart. And notice what actually happened in those situations. Whether it's me they're present while it's happening, or us doing a retrospective on it afterwards. Like that is, that's when the real team is happening. So that's my preference. I don't usually.

Alison Grieve 
Yeah, I mean, I've had some fun myself on some of those crazy, I would generally say that they're more physical challenges that break you down physically, and therefore, they can be fun creatures, you're covered in mud, or you're knackered, or you're hanging from some rope somewhere and blindfolded at somebody, that's when I remember, someone's trying to give you instruction, you know. So those things can be really good fun.

But I, what concerns me, I suppose is one, there's the inclusion thing. But I also worry about how much learning actually comes back into how you work together back at the team. So there's a sort of bonding and like, wow, we all got through that. And we're back in the warmth after work, which is really good. And I think we can create similar kinds of things in the workplace on a much more small frequent basis of generating things that are fun celebrations for the team which can be of achievements, things that are people enjoy at work, funny things, getting everybody to have a laugh about stuff. I think that is much more healthy and contributes to a longer term resilience of a team rather than that sort of extreme, you know, bonding mode. moments for them.

I think, you know, when I look at our team, we have really good bonding moments where we're celebrating all together about some bad achievement that we got an award or a project that's finished or some feedback, or something that's gone completely bad. And we've had to fix it. And it's been a bit of a challenge. And we're tired at the end of having to do that. But then that review and that time together, but somehow helping everybody to see that we're all in it together. Those are the moments that I think build the longer-term resilience of the team and the connection, and the sense of belonging, and then not wanting to leave. Because you think why do you do all of this, it's because you actually want good results. And you don't want people to leave, you want to retain them. You want them to keep learning and developing and growing. And I think we can do that.

Jenni Miller 
Getting teams to practice the behaviors that they're going to they want to demonstrate on a day-to-day basis. Yeah, how often do office-based teams need to go and spend a night in the woods and eat worms, or build a raft? Like that's not their job on a day to day basis? It's not reality. So you know, what, to what extent does that replicate the behaviors that you want them to see on a day to day, but it doesn't like in my view, so I prefer to create exercises and games and challenges and stuff that help them practice, the behaviors they want to see. That's my perspective on it. Yeah, rightly or wrongly.

Alison Grieve 
And you can make them fun and have a laugh about somebody's pathetic spaghetti with marshmallows. Now have a laugh. You know, we've done some where people do some singing exercises, and I don't know all sorts of crazy things, which I've taught small things that are experiences that people then can joke about, and remember for a long time afterwards, so I've got one on Jeopardy of these things is great.

Jenni Miller 
I've got one team that love charity, they milk built a marshmallow and spaghetti tower, they call that marshmallow gate. That was a seminal moment in our team. And we had a massive realization that this was going on this behavior was happening, our team that we didn't wasn't healthy, it wasn't helping us and we changed it. They still refer to it like 18 months later was marshmallow Gala.

Alison Grieve 
Like if you create language, don't they? Yeah, it gets a build that sort of sense of tribe and those kinds of things. So I think you can do that in smaller chunks, and reinforce it with teams over time.

Michael Glazer 
I want to pivot from talking about complexities and team dynamics to some practical matters. So I dare call this a lightning round. But I'd like to ask you a few questions to help you give listeners some practical advice. Are you up for this? Okay, so the first thing I'm going to ask, are what did two practical steps that leaders can take to balance, giving guidance and being present for team members with creating enough space for them to have a healthy sense of autonomy?

Alison Grieve 
Yeah, I mean, we have a very short Monday meeting as a team. So it's a half an hour, we've toned it down. And so on Monday morning, it's virtual, join in the call. And we ask our team members to tell us what their big thing is of the week. And also what's their workload like. And so everybody shares that. And if they've got a really huge thing that looks like it's gonna be awful, and they need some help, or whatever, then we'll talk a bit about that, and how we can help and sort it out.

We also asked about general workload with, you know, the good old traffic light system. And so people are sitting at read well, that means we're not going to give them any more work or whatever. So, you know, Amber will talk about, well, what else do you need? And green is like, Why think you can help somebody out. And we know we could find some more work for you. So that's kind of how we set up our week. But it's very much about people taking responsibility for what they're doing that week, and but also knowing they've got others to call on and they have the right to call on other people to we expect that of them. And I think that sets up some sense of accountability of what you're going to deliver.

Michael Glazer 
So part of that is accountability. And then part of that is also creating some transparency on the team.

Jenni Miller 
So that yeah, connection support of each other that helps with mental health challenges on your own, you know, yeah, it's quite it's a lovely routine example of a routine that has many facets to it. He was checking on how our weekends were, like there's a social 15 minutes of it is actually asked just what did you do at the weekend? Because that's really important. You know, We are human beings after all, not just human doing.

Michael Glazer 
While we're on the topic of routines like this Monday meeting, are there other types of common routines that get in the way of high performance?

Alison Grieve 
Yes. Round the table where everybody talks about all their work in detail, and everybody else's, and I've sat through so many of them in my career is that, yeah…

Jenni Miller 
I think, generally the one that, that that comes up the most as being the most ineffective, poorly run, boring, you know, I prefer to be doing other things, if I've got a clash, you know, and I'm gonna, you know, I'm not really enjoying that meeting, I'm gonna choose the, the alternative. And actually, that that becomes getting that right, it's actually really easy. You know, you just need to put some effort into it, and the experimental about it and keep changing it, it's a quick win, because it's in your control as a team, that's, you know, you have choice over how your team meetings run. But it's such an enabler of all of the dynamics that we talk about, you know, it's about sense of connection and belonging, which is reason, it's about delivering results.

You know, that's, you know, the task element to this too. There's, it's an example of a route one of many routines, but another example would be communication. Meetings are a core method of communication. It's about building relationships, and then seeing each other as human beings as well as your work beings. And it's about resilience, because you can use it to manage workloads and things like that. And so, yeah, lots of lots of mechanisms. I think a team meetings make a massive difference.

Michael Glazer 
Are there some pet peeves that you have about ineffective meetings that, that you would like to see teams move from something that exists now to something that you know, from your research is much more effective for teams? What were the couple of examples?

Jenni Miller 
There's quite a few tips. So I think, if I was to choose a number one that like, if you just change this in a tee, this makes a massive difference to so it's an unlock, is move away from just seeing meetings as a task, thing, to being about relationships to Yes, or the fact that you've got to do something in those meetings. But how do you also build relationships? You know, so these, you're probably very precious moments, when you come together in your week or your month, depending on your delicate leadership teams, they often only come together once a month, for a couple of hours, right? Right, that's a short amount of time and a whole month to foster really important relationships, possibly the most important relationships in your working life. And yet, you're just focusing on the work and not kind of building relationship as well, that's a miss. As far as I'm concerned,

Michael Glazer 
Do you have a go-to play or two, for your once-a-month management meeting? Relationship…

Jenni Miller 
No, no. The relationship is quite specific for each team, I think. And I think only the team can decide what's right for them, and what, to what extent they want to put that emphasis on relationships going to, that's going to be determined by the kind of personalities you've got on the team, the kind of work that they're doing, how much interdependence they have on each other.

You know, whether they're what we call a simple or complex team, simple team doesn't have a huge amount of interdependence at all, it can be quite independent of each other. So it's about best practice sharing, complex teams are highly interdependent on each other. So relationship becomes really important, the more complex the stuff they're doing, and the more interdependent they are, the more relationships need to be brilliant. So it really does depend. And I think only the team can determine that.

Michael Glazer 
What about the opposite end of highly complex, interdependent teams? Simple teams, say, a sales team, where there's one or two types of resources on the team. And it's essentially the team views it as “I have my own accounts, or me and one other person work on our accounts, they’re our accounts, you have yours,” there's not much overlap.

Jenni Miller 
Yeah, maybe competitive even as well, right?

Alison Grieve 
We're competing, we're here to be the best one to win the vacation at the end of the year, or whatever the deal is. For those teams, I think it's really important to think about, well, what connects them all together. And surely, it's things like best practices, innovative new ways to deal with your suppliers, or your customers and, you know, updates on business, rather than you know, and that's where I've sat through death by people talking through all their projects and activities.

So I think, you know, being much more careful about having something in there that everybody can contribute to and would be interested in. And having a shorter meeting doesn't mean you don't have to have day long things or half day things or four hours, be much more flexible. I think, if I was say to a leader in a team about practicing being flexible, says why don't you start with your meetings, mix them up. then all of them, change it up and see how much flexibility and change you could bring in your meetings and experiment and find what works.

Michael Glazer 
Speaking of what works, I'm going to go back to this thing I'm doing a lot during this conversation, which is go to the opposite of what's works to kind of wrap up our conversation, I want to ask you, each, what you view as the greatest unmet will be needed in the workplace today.

Alison Grieve 
I think isolation, so you know, talking about meetings, going into meetings, and nobody's got their video on their screen, so you can't see them. People are not communicating very well. They're just sending WhatsApp or slack messages and emails, they don't meet physically, I think isolation then tends to make people feel that it's just about the task and work becomes a chore. Because fun at work often is because you've solved a problem or you've overcome a challenge with someone else.

And so if we start to lose those, then I think it's really sad. And I think when we started or the COVID lockdowns, people were really careful and put a lot of work into make sure everybody was competitive, come connected, and there was a lot of compassion, then, you know, awful quizzes and stuff to connect people online that people got tired off. But now there's nothing. And so I do worry about the isolation that can happen with people, just just not communicating, connecting and getting on with some tasks on a day to day basis.

Michael Glazer 
Really, how about you? What do you think?

Jenni Miller 
Yeah, I was gonna fully agree with what Allison said, I think it is the number one challenge that I think that organizations are wrestling with at the moment in the debate about whether hybrid works or whether it's back to the office, I don't think it's actually a location issue. I think it's an isolation issue. So what people are picking up on is that people aren't as motivated or as productive as they could be, if they're just working from home, that they're working from home. But it's not the issue. It's the fact that, that managers and teams aren't putting in mechanisms to make people feel connected still to the organization, you dress that like imagine it's going to open up something really powerful and positive.

Michael Glazer 
And if you could wave a magic wand and change one thing to make people more connected or less isolated, what would you change?

Jenni Miller 
That focus on task or relationship keeps coming back to that, doesn't it? Let's move beyond just delete being a resource of the organization that delivers something. Let's build relationships so that we deliver even better things together. There's something about the power of human beings and collaboration. That's kind of you know, it's just so powerful. And when we come together with others,

Michael Glazer 
Well, it's a beautiful segue into the into my last question for you both, which is, what is the phrase working with humans mean to you? Oh,

Alison Grieve 
I think, “working with humans,” there is a warmth and creativity that is so empowering, and inspiring and energizing. That's what it's about.

Jenni Miller 
And what it is for me is when he was asking the question, I think, what's the alternative to that is working with robots and artificial intelligence? Cuz a lot of things I'm here people getting quite concerned about, are they gonna replace me? You know, what does that mean for my job going forward? And actually, what's the beauty of working with humans as opposed to AI? is solving really complex problems together doing something the first time that nobody's ever done before being creative and coming up with new ideas? Like, I don't think that maybe wrong, maybe well be proven wrong. I don't think that robots and AI can do that. So I think that's what keeps us special and powerful as a species is all about.

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