Episode 113: Reverse Mentoring

Ever wondered what happens when we flip traditional corporate hierarchies, allowing the young to mentor the old? This episode zeroes in on reverse mentoring, showcasing its power to drive innovation and foster understanding across generations. Patrice Gordon, a pioneer at Virgin Atlantic and author of the book “Reverse Mentoring: Removing Barriers and Building Belonging in the Workplace.”

Patrice explains how embracing uncomfortable moments and challenging our assumptions can lead to growth for both people and organizations. She also shares advice for setting up and running reserve mentoring programs and strategies for bringing more humanity into our organizations. Tune in to discover how you can harness the potential of reverse mentoring to not only enhance leadership but also create a more inclusive, dynamic workplace.

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Episode Highlights

• Explore reverse mentoring's role in driving innovation and understanding between generations.
• Gain insights from Patrice Gordon on fostering inclusive leadership and authentic self-expression at work.
• Learn strategies from Virgin Atlantic's reverse mentoring for cultivating an inclusive culture.
• Steps to implement effective reverse mentoring programs for organizational change.
• Tackle misconceptions and challenges in reverse mentoring and DEI for better outcomes.
• The role of trust in reverse mentoring success and how to assess and build it.
• Criteria for selecting the right participants for pilot mentoring programs.
• Establishing psychological safety for impactful mentorship relationships.
• Enhancing workplace communication and connection through reverse mentoring.
• Keeping reverse mentoring programs alive and impactful with leadership commitment.

Patrice’s view on the greatest unmet wellbeing need at work today

“I think it's about connection. So post-pandemic, like, you know, you've got better up service talks about like people who don't feel connected at work, people who would rather not be connected with the people at work, and people who really want to be connected with people at work.

And so for me, well-being is about connection. Especially when we're talking about in a hybrid world, when we're talking about, you know, a lot of the work that I do is with the Gent with Gen Z and it's about them entering the workforce properly for the first time, and how things that we maybe took for granted being like seasoned, seasoned corporate employees.

But what does that look like now especially being like digital natives, and now heading into a space where it may not actually be the Digital First, it's more people first. But really that connection and building authentic connection within an organization where people are more like people's opinions or views are more polarized than ever.

And now we're living our lives at work as well. So, historically, we maybe didn't have the opportunity to bring all of our viewpoints and opinions to the office. But now we have no option but to write because it's just weaved into every part of our being now.

And so connecting at a deeper level, from a pace of like honesty and transparency, but also with respect, that all feeds into that connection piece for me.”

What "working with humans" means to Patrice

“Be more human. Like, bring as much of yourself to work as you feel comfortable in doing I always say, and, but it's recognizing people's individuality and respecting that and acknowledging that you have these wide policies.

But actually, the one-on-one interaction those conversations…just will mean so much more to people to feel like seen and heard and valued. And I think everyone just needs to create bit more time to do that.”

Resources

Follow: Patrice on LinkedIn
Visit: Eminere
Read: Reverse Mentoring: Removing Barriers and Building Belonging in the Workplace
Watch: How reverse mentorship can help create better leaders

Full Transcript

Note: This is an unedited AI-generated transcription. Please excuse any errors or inconsistencies.

Michael Glazer 
You actually reverse mentored the CEO of Virgin Atlantic. And so what was the high point of that experience for you?

Patrice Gordon
That was my first reverse mentoring experience, just to say, That's what kicked this whole thing off. It's an amazing place to start. I know not bad, right, I kind of jumped in at the deep end. But for me, it was acknowledgement of my privilege that someone at that level wanted to know about me. So not just the work that I did, but took a keen interest in understanding my formative experiences and how this impacted the way that I showed up at work. So to give a bit of context, by this point, I had been working for like 20 years at Warner Oh, sorry, rewind. At this point, I had been working for about 15 years and 10 years 10 of those years in senior management positions. And so for me, it was the first time someone said, okay, yeah, oh, not understand about you, Patrice, not just like, the great work that you do, but you. And what I gained from it was this really, really deep understanding of what was missing, or what I felt was missing from some senior leaders. And that was really about curiosity, and why people didn't tap into people who are different to them to understand a little bit more about them. And I then lead as a lead mentor for the Virgin Atlantic pilot program, series of sessions with their mentors to help them be more comfortable in sharing their stories, etc. and leaning into my experience. And it gave me it was kind of one of the final things that I did at Virgin Atlantic, which really just cemented me as the leader in business who did over and above have a day job to ensure that the culture was as inclusive as possible. And so that was kind of one of my greatest gifts that I was given that I then used and turned into gold at Virgin Atlantic.

Michael Glazer
You said one of the highest part of that highlight was hearing that people want to know, or the CEO wants to know about you. You remember what that was like?

Patrice Gordon
Yeah, of course. So to clarify, like my bosses, my leaders always like took an interest in like getting to know me understanding what my motivations were, in terms of work, and a little bit around my background. But ultimately, where we look around senior leadership, Team tables, there is a similarity bias that exists. And that bias exists, because people feel more comfortable, it's natural, to be surrounded with people just like us, right? That just makes us feel comfortable and safe. And so when I reflected on situations, or wider group settings in leadership teams, I remember not necessarily being able to bring my whole self into that situation, or not being asked to bring my whole self into that situation. So for this aspect for him to want to get to know the whole me the formative Patrice like my whole journey, to see whether there were any similarities from that perspective, but also understanding the differences. That was like, wow, I mean, it's so simple. It's so simple. But it was just for me, like it really made me feel seen.

Michael Glazer
Was there a particular exchange or question that made you feel that? Or is it something that built over time?

Patrice Gordon
It was something that built over time, and it was, you know, the sessions, you know, as you have like a coaching session, you'll have really good conversations in that session. But it's that aha moments outside of those sessions that you you look back, and you think, Oh, actually, that's really interesting. Or, you know, for him, he used to share notes with me afterwards to say, like, I haven't had to think about what you said. And now I've had time to digest it. These are kind of my thoughts. And let's pick it up in our next session. So the fact that he was not only listening, he was digesting. And he was actively trying to think about how he could make the organization more inclusive, based on what I had said, that was a real big thing for me.

Michael Glazer
And you said part of that difference, what you gain from it was being in a better position to affect the culture in a way to make it more inclusive can kind of highlight what the before and after was of how it became more inclusive. Yeah.

Patrice Gordon
So I this was like my first my third foray into like inclusion activities, which is why I was asked to be a reverse mentor in the first place. But the first thing I did was I helped to implement the first graduate finance program. We didn't have one at Atlantic. And I asked the question, and everyone's like, yeah, it's a great idea we thought about before, but we've not really like I had the impetus to get it done, which is one of my skill sets, like get people together, get things done. So I did that as one of my projects outside when I was in finance. And then my second thing was, we had a women's development program called Springboard, which is helping to support kind of the assertiveness and the career development of managers who were women who were non management grade within the organization. And I was the first non HR person to be a facilitator for that program. That ties really nicely in with my coaching qualification and the fact that I wanted to, I wanted to leave my mark on the organization, which meant for me doing things outside saving them business money or running a really spectacular program, it was around touching the hearts and minds of people to let them know that they are seen as well as they have a support network to be able to do that. So I feel like maybe reverse mentoring was my karma, in that I had spent lots of time trying to ensure that other people felt seen and heard. And then I had the opportunity to be seen and heard as well. So on the back of that relationship, we launched a pilot program, and they're now going through kind of a program now, and, but it was really around removing some of those hierarchical barriers. So it's about making leaders seem more approachable. It's about those leaders really stepping into that vulnerability of acknowledging that and bearing in mind, this was 2018. So this was before everything that has been happening recently happened. So it was a real genuine interest and need and want to try to build a more inclusive culture. The motto Virgin Atlantic was, like, you know, be a place that customers love, like, and in order for customers to love Virgin Atlantic as the brand, the employees also need to love working there, too, right? We know, love, almost hate relationships with organizations. But Virgin Atlantic was really keen to be that like most loved, organization, most loved holiday company. And in order for that to happen, the organization internally needed to reflect that. So it's been a long journey. And and as you all know, from virgins culture, it was very much so put forward on the fact that everyone should feel like they can belong. But that doesn't come overnight, that doesn't just come because you say is you have to invest in that. And I just felt like at that time, there were lots of initiatives that supported like that belonging in that culture. And on the back of the reverse mentoring pilot. A few things changed internally from a disability perspective. So definitely made some changes internally to make sure that people who had a disability felt more welcomed and included a network called den. So the disability engagement network was started to reflect and also acknowledged individuals with different needs. And the black network. So the Virgin Atlantic values diversity network was launched almost on the back of that as well, that didn't happen until a bit more recently. But it was really acknowledging some of those broader groups. So for context, there was a scarlet network, which was for women, and there was a pride network, which was for LGBTQ plus a colleagues as well. But those were the two main networks that existed. So just acknowledging more broadly, the range of individuals that were in the organization was, I think, one of the really important things that came from that.

Michael Glazer
So I want to get into all of this and these impacts of belonging and inclusive culture. Before we get too far into this, for people who aren't as familiar with reverse mentoring as you are, that would be a lot of people. What is it exactly what is reverse mentoring?

Patrice Gordon
So, background, reverse mentoring was first popularized by Jack Welsh in the 1990s, with General Electric, really acknowledging the fact that senior execs didn't have the, say, tech savvy that they needed to face what was coming down the line. Or the irony is now we've got like another thing that's coming down from a technology perspective. But my definition of reverse mentoring is where we have a senior leader who is mentored by someone from an underrepresented background. And so that is in the shape of gender, ethnicity, age, veteran status, sexual preference, to name a few. So any of the protected characteristics really is what we look at. And for example, if a leadership team is all female, and all of a certain age, then a person of difference would be a cisgendered. Male, for example, with a different age bracket. So where that power lies, we're really trying to ensure that the person that's mentoring that leader, is someone of difference that they don't have close proximity to, and that will help them to expand and understand different implications of their decision making. While

Michael Glazer
It's a standalone program, it's not something that is a magic pill or, or an all all things to all people dei program, it exists within a ecosystem of dei space. Right?

Patrice Gordon
Absolutely. And that, you know, I started to kind of almost shift the narrative because this is around the inclusion agenda, right? So this is about how people feel included within an organization and we know that there are some really big challenges with inclusion at the moment. So for me, it sits between the education and the action pillar. So on one hand, it's how do you educate individuals of individuals that are not like them. And the whole responsibility, let me just clarify is not on the mentor to do that education. But it is a really nice live experience for them to tap into a deep experience. And then the action pillar is okay, so what now what? So you've heard the story you've heard, how that impacts individuals, you've heard how a policy might have inadvertently impacted a certain group. Now, what are you going to do because you hold the power leader to drive and make changes. So building empathy, and then taking action from what you've learned? Is, is kind of the space that reverse mentoring sits in.

Michael Glazer
You mentioned policies, just they're an example of how a reverse mentoring relationship can impact a policy or processes system in an organization? And

Patrice Gordon
I'm not sure if you've ever seen that TV program called Undercover Boss. Yeah, yeah. Right. So in our undercover boss, it's a classic example of of almost reverse mentoring, but just from a guy's angle. But ultimately, US leaders sometimes have a tendency to sit around a table, like look at reports, pull information in, have a bright spark idea, come up with a plan, implement that plan, and then wonder why it hasn't worked, right. And so, and it really does help to understand the impact of some of the decisions that you make around a senior leadership team table. And that comes in the form of you know, at the moment, a really hot topic is around working practices and like hybrid working, and what that looks and feels like from people from different groups, and not just people of difference, but people of different groups. And therefore, standard, like hybrid working policy, with little flexibility is, has different implications for different groups. So whether you're a mum, whether you are a caregiver, you know, that's very, very common nowadays. And whether for other reasons, you just perform better when you're not in the office five days a week? I mean, he doesn't. There are just different things to consider. And I've really enjoyed working with some organizations who are leaning into understanding. So this is we did this for more of a group group perspective. So not a one on one. But really understanding how opening the communication channels for feedback. After people were not actually following the hybrid working policy, that's also not a surprise, because I think you're hearing that quite a bit now. But you know, that came from sat around the leadership team table, this is what the research is telling us. We've got all this real estate, why are people not in the office, we need the people back in the office, because now you know, they've had enough time at home. And now, we're gonna just mandate that they come back three days a week. And the reflection, the vulnerability, the ability for that organization to kind of step back and say, Actually, yeah, that didn't really work out. And this free night, this three line whip isn't working. So actually, how do we go back to our people and speak to them and understand what works for them? And then how do we adjust the policy accordingly to make sure that people a will follow it, but be feel like happy and contented in terms of working in an organization. So it's the opening up of the the community communication channels and removing or reducing the hierarchy to acknowledge that certain decisions that are made? Maybe not the best decisions? Because it's not really done on a consultative approach?

Michael Glazer
It sounds like that's our main barrier is the hierarchy and the assumption that the data that they're getting from the usual sources is enough for them to make high quality decisions. Yeah, absolutely. It also sounded there. Like the other element to that is empathy as a function of engagement.

Patrice Gordon
I'm not sure if you've seen like the studies post pandemic, but you know, one of the key skills that leaders need is empathy.

Michael Glazer
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I want to zoom out for just a moment and talk about some of the misconceptions and challenges associated with reverse mentoring and DEI programs can you share from your experience? What are some of those misconceptions? And what are people better off to think instead of that? The question,

Patrice Gordon
So misconceptions I have, there's several, but I'll pick out two. So one is that it will fix all of the DEI issues within the organization. And I think you mentioned it before, it is not a silver bullet. It has to sit amongst other DNI initiatives with a really clear objective in regards to what is this being implemented to support. Because sometimes research has suggested that without that framing, then it's a little bit of a confused approach. And people it's like, you know, tokenism can come out, people can feel as though right, this is a great talking exercise, but it's not actually leading to anything. And that leads me on to the second point, that it is a listening experience. So post, the pandemic, or in the middle of the pandemic, you will see the searches for reverse mentoring increase, I did a Google piece, and like it was in the hundreds, percentage increase points, right. And ultimately, organizations kind of went into a reactive mode in terms of like, how do we fix this? Instead of thinking like pausing step back, how do we get to this position? What does the future gonna look like? How do we plan this a little bit more systematic way. So there was so many listening exercises done so many reverse mentoring programs launched in a reactive space. But then, people weren't being held to account for like, what was gonna happen afterwards. And so it's not a listening exercise or experience it is, it is an experience, which is going to lead to something more fruitful. And in order for it to be fruitful action must have come out of the program. So the misconception is it's great listening exercises, tick it off the list, no. Proper reverse mentoring experiences have strict objectives, but also really clear as to what the outcomes and the actions will be. And you know, some organizations just do it once. And they're like, Okay, that was interesting. I'm not sure we're in a space to expand that, and I'm not sure we're in a space where we can really benefit from what the time and effort that that's going to take right now. Because the first tranche has shown us what gaps we have in other parts of our business that we need to focus on first. And I applaud and completely support those organizations, because it is a lot of time, leadership effort, and employee effort to tap into it, if you're not going to move forward at a certain pace to drive change. And then from a challenging perspective, I would say, the first thing that I focus really heavily on in the book, and in my implementation piece is around psychological safety. So through the research is really evident a lot of companies just like dive right in without doing the temperature check first. And what that means is, is the is the soil fertile enough for the seed to grow? Right? And so is the organizational environment, is your organizational culture is the organizational engagement at a point at which the introduction of reverse mentoring is going to seamlessly be assimilated and accepted and grow and be able to be fruitful in that environment? Or is does the environment need a bit of work, quite frankly, before such a personally? Engaging initiative is introduced? Yeah. And that's really important. So

Michael Glazer 
This is really about the level of trust, not just in the organizational within the organization in general, but trust between different groups, different levels in an organization, right.

Patrice Gordon
Sounds like you've read my book. Yeah. Open, the level of trust in the organization is like one of the most important like one of the first chapters. So like really understanding where that sits.

Michael Glazer
So what are some of the telltale signs of high trust and low trust that would tell someone, we're ready, or we're not there yet started a reverse mentoring program?

Patrice Gordon
This is part of my onboarding, diagnostic, and before we even start, actually, and it's really about within your employee engagement survey, you have a few questions. And that is like, do you feel like you belong in the organization? Do you feel your leader understands who you are? Do you feel that you're the leader makes it your leader in your organization makes decisions that are for the benefit of you? Do you feel like your leader listens? Do you feel like your leader has an understanding of some of the challenges that you face? So there's these are the questions around leadership? The questions around belonging, like do you feel like you're going to be here? In you know, their sliding scale? I guess? Yeah, yes. Question. Yeah, yeah. Two years, do you feel like you have an opportunity to use your skills at work in the best way? So these all these questions, pull together a story of the level of trust in the organization, but also where that individual feels they sit in that organization as well as to two things. One, do they feel like they belong and they are, they have an affiliation and affinity with the organization, and to do they feel like the organization is effectively doing the right thing. And so those are Understanding the answers to those questions, seeing whether there's a trend, then also tapping into, sometimes I get bought in by employee resource group, so ERGs. So tapping into that relationship to understand, this is what the policy says, This is what the engagement survey says, Please give me the real talk in terms of what's happening here to really understand engage where that sits. And you know, sometimes there you know, reverse mentoring, like I said, is a capital intensive and a time intensive program, which definitely does bring results. But ultimately, if you are looking for more widespread change within the organization, when you have other challenges when it comes to organizational trust, then I would not recommend you employ that as one of your tools. Because leadership time is precious people's time and precious resources are precious, pick something else that's going to bring more greater engagement before you dive into something like this.

Michael Glazer 
Assuming that there's enough trust to begin a reverse mentoring program. What is it that reverse mentoring programs have the potential to contribute to organizations that other types of dei programs can't?

Patrice Gordon
First of all, I believe that while I know that reverse mentoring is the only intervention where leaders can't delegate it, so when we talk about, you know, getting that growth zone 10x, like sales and operations, which is great, because leaders can then delegate that to the team that will implement it great. But reverse mentoring is one thing that you are unable to delegate as a leader, which means that you need to get uncomfortable in it. So first of all, that's why it stands head and shoulders above other initiatives, because the seeing and the feeling, and then those leaders being able to sit around a table and say, right, okay, how are we going to approach this policy, this time, it's going to be slightly different, because they have put themselves literally in someone else's shoes. I would say that the fact that you have different people from different levels in different organizational structures coming together. So backtrack, I don't recommend implementing reverse mentoring within the same hierarchical structure, because that doesn't aid psychological safety. Because conversations you're having, you want to make sure they're almost as free as possible. But you're actually removing silos, if you implement it cross organization. And like most, you know, the most hyper matrix organizations I've worked with and worked in, they're still their silo issue, there's still always that challenge of like, we all operate like this. And then we tap out when we need to. But ultimately, where you have that another checkpoint or another linchpin into another part of the organization, from both both levels, from the senior leader to the person who is doing the mentoring, that really helps to build is the book is called reverse mentoring, breaking barriers and building belonging, but it is literally breaking barriers. Because you're you're able to have that relationship that you would not normally like, What business do I have, having a senior relationship with the head of operations when I sit in commercial, right, and it's just one of the things that it helps to break down. So removal of hierarchy, the ability not to delegate but having to sit within it. And then also, you know, the removal hierarchy comes with the cultural shift that, that, that that there is, which is you have this coveted hierarchy within an organization. And now, you're opening the doors, not to challenge it, but to facilitate and acknowledge that learning can happen in a flow and in a two way space.

Michael Glazer
You like in reverse mentoring to implementing a new technology, without providing training to employees on how to use it? And I love that example. Can you explain what the link is here?

Patrice Gordon
Yes. So you know, you have this great new technology product, and like everyone's raving about it, you have it implemented, you have this new pop up that comes on your screen when you start your computer on a Monday morning, and there's no training, no training. And you're like, everyone's talking about how great it is, but you're just getting on with your job. And you're like, I've already I've always done it in this way. This is like, second nature to me, this new piece of technology, how do I dive into it, and if I dive into it with other people dive into it, or we will dive in into it the same time at the same pace like because if we don't, then the level of organizational change is going to be different. And I'm just actually really comfortable and do what I'm doing. I mean, there's nothing really wrong doing what I'm doing. But yeah, I don't think I'm really going to move forward with this. Because no one's told me like I have to do it. No one's told me like, this is where the training is, and this is what we need to do. So you spent millions of pounds or dollars on this technology but you've not activated your employees to understand why. To understand what like why What was the rationale for implementing it, but what the benefits are for doing it as well. And it's like the why and the what? Those two key things, I think lots of organizations have these great ideas and spend massive amount of money. But that communication piece is so important. And so part of when I implement is really around that communication plan, I'd rather spend an extra month with the team's thinking about the communication plan, understanding what the right points is to introduce the concept to introduce the application process to give people the opportunity to ask questions. And I guarantee you 10, out of 10 programs that I've all of the programs I've run, there's always someone who comes back and says I didn't, I didn't see I didn't see the application I didn't. I wasn't aware this was happening from, you know, it's put on workplace, it's on teams, it's sent in an email, it's talked about in town halls, but still guarantee every single program, someone misses it. And that just goes to show like how busy and committed people are at work. But also, in addition to that is you have to keep on repeating the message is you have to have that single thread of communication, you have to ensure that everything that you're doing within the organization, you are repeating, and it's succinct, and it's all joined up, because otherwise people you lose people lose people really quickly, really easily in an amongst their day job and in and amongst the different cause for their intense attention that they have. So

Michael Glazer
Clear and consistent communication is definitely a key success factor and not doing it as a pitfall. Yeah, any other common pitfall that you see that prevents reverse mentoring programs from getting set up successfully?

Patrice Gordon
If the what and the why. So that communication, but he linchpins on the what that? Sorry, the why, why are we doing this? Why is it important? And what like, what is the process going to be? How is it? How clear and transparent do you make it? What are the expectations? When will people hear back when the program is over communicating? clearly articulating what it was that was learned? What were the process was, and just keeping that piece going? Because people are, like I said, lots of information being pushed out people, but like, for what you're doing and why you're doing it. And that constant reminder. And that thread throughout is really important. Before we even get started.

Michael Glazer
It sounds like that that also has a link to creating this accountability to get results. So that it's not just the listening tours you mentioned before. Yeah, exactly. You also mentioned in passing about selection, and one of the things that I really enjoyed about the book I was reading your thoughts on when you're How do you thoughtfully set a set of criteria? When you're selecting mentors for a pilot reverse mentoring program? What are some of the things that companies need to think about?

Patrice Gordon
They really need to understand how how individuals that participate in the pilot will be both advocates for the program, but also be able to give real talk to say real talk in that objective and fair feedback in terms of how it works or has worked or should work better. So I often find in organizations, those individuals who are already speaking up, hence, case pointed an example myself, right. So someone who is already keen to develop an organization above their own ego, yeah, to lean into an organization to not only see where there are problems and challenges, but want to be part of that solution. is key, because ultimately, that individual is thinking already thinking about something bigger than themselves. And so to have one of them as a mentor, and have a leader who is also really keen on establishing a culture, which is slightly a slightly altruistic in nature, because they will have a small benefit from it. But we know that cultural shift and change takes a long time. So whether they will still be in the organization in 510 years time when you really see that cultural shift, take a turn requires a leader who has again, a vision and a purpose bigger than themselves in their ego. So they're contributing towards something not just for tomorrow, but for the longer term as well.

Michael Glazer
So this is the selection for the mentee, the senior person,

Patrice Gordon
but that's the mentee, but yeah, for the mentor so that that's what I was in the initial relationship with Craig. It was individuals who, you know, you have an application process to make it fair and transparent. I was requested but I had an opportunity to say no, because this was like the pilot piece and really I'm looking at criteria such as how has this person already put themselves put their head above like the parapet to say, I really want to contribute towards the organization in a greater way. Because that indicates almost a lack of self interest purely but a want. And I need to develop a bigger like a better future for the organization.

Michael Glazer
So there's a personal profile. And I remember that. One of the things, one of the other things to take a look at when we're when we're selecting mentor participants for a pilot program is doing an organizational check on where engagement is, is thin, for example, or where there are voluntary levers or where where there's evidence that there are cultural problems in the organization. And if there are any trends in terms of what type of employee what group of employees may be affected by that that's a signal, as opposed to casting a broad net for anybody who's interested. Your advice is to be very targeted about who goes first and with what intent.

Patrice Gordon
And it depends on, you know, it depends on the size of that pilot. So I always recommend starting with pilot, and the reason I do is because I have this tried and tested framework, but how that framework is adapted and how sticky it is in organizations is relative to the organization. So start small, even though some organizations are like, Yeah, let's go for it. Let's just do it to everyone, I recommend starting small and being really clear about what the objectives are for this pilot, and then building a program on the back of that. So some of the pilots are run in like three months, so they can trip into full of programs quite soon after. But the reason I think that's particularly important is because when you open up the floodgates, so to speak, for people to be mentors, specifically, you have these underrepresented individuals who are really keen to share their viewpoints and opinions. And it can be really disheartening. So I remember, like, one of the first programs that I came in to consult with, they were like, we have just been inundated with applications for mentors. And we're only going to take like 20. So then they had a significant number times 10, almost, of individuals who they had to say, thank you for your luck, we had to sift through them. First of all, we need to review all of them. And then we needed to sift through and then say right, we're going to do the pilot is going to be six months it was at a time, we'll see how that runs in the organization. And then we will like add you on to like almost a waitlist. And we'll reach out to you again, when we want to run the full program. So if you can imagine being a person who's like put themselves forward filled out an application form have a chance of implement in influencing change within the organization. And then to be told, right, there was like 10% of the space one, and then two are going to have to wait six months to apply again, or be included again. And then when that happens, that's going to take like another two months after that. But when you're trying to encourage engagement, you want to have, I wouldn't say in inverted commas, quick wins, but an ability to have a process where you can demonstrate change in a relatively truncated period of time. Acknowledging that that is the first time and there's going to be continuous improvement, but then allowing people to see the distance between where they are now and how they can then get involved in the future. So building up the excitement to open the floodgates and then say only a few of you can come through the gates is not necessarily the best way to drive engagement. And so that's where I say, actually those individuals who have like in the application forms that I do for individuals, I ask a series of questions, and then we have a ranking in terms of what that looks like. But from the start, like, one of the questions I asked is, can you share how you have outside of your day job? How you have invested to driving diversity, equity and inclusion within the organization or outside? Like, get point blank. So full stop. So if you are an individual who has not yet done that, then maybe you would look at that and think Oh, actually, no, I haven't really done that yet. But okay, I know that's one of the questions. So I'm going to start getting involved in one of these employee resource groups or something like that, because that's me demonstrating that I've already committed to driving diversity, equity and inclusion within the world or within my organization because this is a very attractive offer to have a mentee you have this private relationship with someone of a senior level. And for those individuals who are self interested. It's a great opportunity for them to kind of drive their own agenda right But if they haven't had experience of like committing and giving back to the community, or sharing their viewpoints to drive change previously, then I'm not sure that there will be a good candidate for the initial reverse mentoring program.

Michael Glazer 
So we need to, I think the message here is we need to be very deliberate and careful in the criteria that we set up for selecting mentors and mentees. Be very clear in our communication about setting expectations in a way that will not unintentionally disengaged, leave people feel disengaged or left out. And let people know in advance, if you're not selected, this time, what's going to happen down the road again, just to make sure that we are there's a net positive in terms of engagement, and inclusiveness with how the program is run. I most like role modeling the program processes, the way you'd like to see the organizational processes take shape in the future.

Patrice Gordon
Yeah, yeah. I like that. It's good summary, thanks.

Michael Glazer
I want to shift a little bit and talk about how reverse mentoring relationships and conversations actually work. So before you talked about how important it was for psychological safety to be present, before starting the pilot program, how do you ensure that their psychological safety once a match is made between a mentor and mentee and before they actually begin the reverse mentoring process.

Patrice Gordon
So part of my process is to do the application. And then we do a wider piece, depending on the organization, we'll do a wider piece in terms of organization, this is what we're doing. This is what the process is going to be. These are the applications. Okay, mentors and mentees are now selected. We do separate sessions with the mentor separate sessions with the mentees as cohorts to allay some of their fears that they might have enter into this relationship for the first time. And working through some roleplay exercises in terms of like, these are some of the things that might come up working through with them, what their objectives are for the program. Generally, for the organization, these are the organization objectives, and then what their individual objectives are. So guiding them along the way, asking them some questions. So they can be really clear and articulate when they meet their counterpart in terms of sharing what that looks like. And then giving them the space and the time to converse as a cohort, but then also use me and the team to come up with some ideas and solutions in terms of what they think they might find challenging. Now, once they've done that, in a safe space, collectively as a cohort, they have two things they have our team, they have their internal team, they also have each other to be able to share that experience with in terms of what they're going to be going through the mentors and mentees equal equivalently. But ultimately, the responsibility to drive and ensure psychological safety is amongst both of them. But the mentee who even though the roles are reversed, they still hold a significant they hold the power a lot of the power in that room, right. And so for them, it's in that first session to ensure that they are really clear in almost hand the power over to the mentor because actually, that that relationship is driven by the mentee if we look at a traditional mentor mentee relationship, and the mentor is the one who has all the knowledge. And so that role reversal shift in that first session, establishing the boundaries being clear as to who holds the power and almost the humbling of the mentee to step into that position to say, right, this is where I'm at. This is the work that I've done. This is a work I know I need to do. I really appreciate your time, I really value your time and I really value this experience. And and really just starting starting that relationship from a point of humility really disarms everybody. But it also takes a great deal of work for the mentee to get into that position when he's when they step into into the room. And so the psychological safety, I mean, I like to look at Timothy's Clark's psychological safety model. And so for those who aren't yet for those who are not aware, it's kind of the first level is to be included. The second level is to be to be able to learn so to be able to ask questions in a way that you weren't fearful like retribution. The third is that you can make a contribution. So not only can you sit around the table, not only can you ask questions, but your point of view can be listened and heard. And in the fourth point, which is where the real magic happens is challenger safety. So this is where you move move through the level. So in my training, I take them through the four levels and give them some examples of like, okay, right, you've sat in front of each other. Now you've included right, then what does that look like? So taking them through psychological safety in that way, I found to be really helpful, because, you know, everyone's using the term psychological safety, and it just doesn't appear overnight. There's work that needs to be done to get to that challenge a level of safety. And you know, sometimes clients have come back to me to say, right, in the sessions, it was great. We did six months, or we did three months. And we feel like, we got to the contribution, safety, right, the contribution safety would be example, this is the policy we've decided, or we've done and it's not really worked out, can you can we have your input into like, what do you think we should do? Like differently, etc. But poster sessions, they've like, obviously removed the confines of the the formal reverse mentoring program. And now this is just an ordinary business relationship. And so in an ordinary business relationship, what you want is more friends and foes, right. So I always say, to everybody that works with me is that I would rather we talk inside of our own house than we have people throw rocks on outside the house. So inside the house, I want to do this, I want to do this new project or have this new policy. I'm going to share it with you, I want you to come back and challenge me, I want you to come back and challenge me on some of these key points, because I'm really confident in it. But I want to know what your challenge is. Because if you can challenge and we can have that safe space conversation, and I'm opening the doors for you to to challenge me in that way. It means that we've we've got to a really good level of psychological safety. And I'm open to the fact that I could be wrong. I'm open to that fact. And I want to be better. And so that's how I really long winded way. But that's how I work on the psychological safety with the teams.

Michael Glazer
Does that mean that it is the responsibility by default rests with the mentee, the more senior member in the relationship to create the space for challenge to occur as opposed to the mentor to say something along lines of thank you for initiating policy change or process change x? The mentee says something like I think it's starting to work. And the mentor says it doesn't look that way. From my point of view.

Patrice Gordon
That's a very reasonable, I'm hearing my cat. Yeah. And so I think, you know, it depends on how comfortable and how confident your mentor is, like I was really confident in terms of like, the things that I had burning on my chest already that I was going to use this opportunity to talk about, that the door opening definitely have heavily relies on the mentee. And you know, when I talk to the groups, when I do the check ins is like usually the second or the third check in I'm like, Okay, right. So we've done this bit, we've done this bit, we've done this bit. Now I want to stretch you and push you to this part, right? How safe Do you feel? How confident do you feel stretching into this dynamic of your relationship? And that's where, like I said, the true magic occurs, the real aha moments, the real click, for the leaders, the mentees in particular, when they're like, oh, okay, well, I can see how I've maybe been skirting around the edges with this relationship, I now recognize the value that it can bring, and I can tap into it a bit deeper. And that's what you get when you spend a lot of time with someone who's got an attorney. If you point out an opinion, right, you're able to, like expand slightly to understand what that's going to look like.

Michael Glazer
And again, this is the mentee, going first and making him or her in themselves vulnerable in some way. And then waiting for the mentor either to respond in kind or to say or to go a level deeper about the kinds of conversations that truly need to happen. Is that the Exactly? Typical mentor relationships, is it up to the mentee to set the agenda for the relationship? Yep,

Patrice Gordon
I'd say yeah, absolutely. They need to be clear in terms of what it is they want to get out of the program. But I still through the workbooks that we provide and like guiding principles and guiding conversations to make sure that the mentor also gets what they need out of their relationship. So I should have clarified this at the start. Obviously, this is reverse mentoring. But both the mentor and mentee get a lot out of this relationship. And it's up to both of them to come to the relationship with that expectation that they are both going to get a lot out of it. Not just the mentor from like, leaving a legacy and making a mark. But they obviously have this undivided attention and time with someone who is in a senior position as well. And so really recognizing that, that that is a benefit, but also post relation, like it turns into reciprocal towards the end, right? It turns into, I recognize the value that you can bring, you recognize the value that I can bring, we now have this safe space where we can exchange ideas and information without the confines of say, a program. And then ultimately, you know, as I touched on at the start, we talked about similarity bias, and the fact that also people, we perceive people who are similar to us to have the same traits as us. And therefore, we will give them more opportunities so to speak, because we clearly feel like they will be able to deliver on those opportunities at the same standard as we would. Now what that really means is when we look around the senior leadership tables for organizations in the footsie in the Nike in the the s&p 500, that there are kind of more Dave's and John's than there would be different people from different ethnicities, different genders, and different ages, where the average age of a CEO is still around 50. And but now you know, someone of difference, and you spent enough time with them to kind of know them on a personal level, you have a new opportunity, something like that, that that person could potentially do. But before that relationship, you wouldn't have known them or wouldn't have given them a chance because you didn't know them. But now you have someone else who's in your, in your sphere of understanding in your sphere of kind of your visibility. So actually, in the rooms that they're not in, you should also become a sponsor for that person. So I always say like, Yes, I do believe in reciprocal mentoring. I do. And I think both people, you know, get something out of the relationship. But the reason why I get stuck on the reverse mentoring piece at the start is because it takes a lot of vulnerability and courage and a mindset shift for the senior leader to really step into that mentee position. And I want them to sit in that position and be a little bit uncomfortable for a while so that they can understand what it truly means to to live and breathe that growth mindset from a personal perspective, before they shift back into their normal Bau, which is I have power and I have influence how can I use that power and influence to drive things forward. So just almost stepping back to step forward, because I fully expect that that those grid relationships that are formed and bonds that are formed, will then allow that person to be a sponsor, not just an ally, a sponsor for someone of difference that they would not have had access to before.

Michael Glazer
And just in passing, for those who aren't familiar with the acronym Bau business, as usual. So while we're talking about translating insight, or learning into real world change, one of the things that you write about in the book is that communication of the learning across the organization is a critical ingredient for this. So can you say a few words about what needs to be communicated? And to whom? Maybe first with the mentees, and then maybe a little bit about what the mentors should be communicating? If anything? Yeah. So

Patrice Gordon
Group communication, so to everybody in the organization, this is happening. So That's level one, level two, the application level three, the mentor and mentees as a cohort together. And then as individual cohorts check in throughout the program, help like cohort based check in separately with the mentors and mentees help to gauge whether the process is working, whether there's any similar themes that are coming up. So not necessarily waiting to the end to figure out actually this is what the action plan could be. If similar conversations are happening, you'd get the same similar sense of energy, then you can almost move on to like the next stage, which could be this is coming up for us quite a lot in all of our conversations. Obviously, we can't make a decision based on the lived experience of one person. But can we pose this question to the employee resource groups as a collective, and ask them to to ask them for their viewpoints and opinions and what they will suggest we do in this area to then flow back into the conversations later. So that communication piece and staying open to the things that stay within the program? In terms of like, what do we need to do to course correct? Are the meetings. Okay? Are the leaders making the time for the meetings? Are the conversations progressing and moving as they should? Do they need some conversation prompts? Or are the conversation prompts a bit too much? Did they just want to freestyle, right? So and then within the groups and the cohorts, they will all have like slightly different feedback, but it's making sure that you provide enough structure around the program in order for it to be successful, but also recognize where some of those structures could be constraints to a free form in relationship flowing, because you know, some, some organizations are a little bit more risk averse when it comes Want to do a free flowing conversation? And some are like, actually, this is just really restricted for us, can we just go off piste, and you know, whatever works on whatever both parties feel comfortable with. But at least having those conversations with people, so they understand it's not going to change. But it's an informed change based on feedback that we've had, as we've gone through the program. And those those are the programs that I really love working with, well, we have that commitment we have that time we have those conversations we can course correct. Which doesn't mean it's wrong, it just means it's not working as best as it could. And we want it to work. Like you kind of talked in our preamble, like my job is to one, set up a psychologically safe reverse mentoring program, and to make sure that it's sustainable. So after my implementation, getting them started off the starting blocks, they work through it. And then we leave that organization in a place where they don't need our intervention and help. They can bring us in for small snippets if they need to, but the tools that they need, they already have. And they own that.

Michael Glazer
Are there predictors that will tell you how likely it is for the psychological safety and the learning and the engagement that happens in the reverse mentoring program to transcend the boundaries of that program and just start to take shape? kind of organically?

Patrice Gordon
I would say it's around where I've observed it really worked working really well. It's the enthusiasm of the leaders that are involved. Yeah. It's their propensity to drive change. So enthusiasm to be involved. Great, okay, one tick, how engaged are they to use their power to drive change. So not just right, we ticked a box with this really excited to be involved, this is a new and exciting concept. But the propensity to drive change your action using their power, this is the key piece. And then, with changing Cultural Initiatives, it's not about the initial lift and push, it's about the sustained effort that you have, that it runs as a single thread throughout the organization, you're always talking about it, you're always linking things back to it, you're always building evolving, and developing things. And so an org, I would say an organization that has a learning culture is really important that this particular piece, which needs to be endorsed and driven from the top, if they have that energy, and they do drive change, and they are enthusiastic about it. Once they kind of open, they open up the gates, and give other people permission to participate in it. And because they still continue to talk about it, and integrate it into things that they do throughout the year, it then becomes part of culture, it then becomes way of life. So you can tell you know, I think most most leaders are really enthusiastic about it at the start, and then you'll you'll be able to gauge whether that enthusiasm continues, once they also realize the personal impact and effort that they need to make to keep it alive. And then from that, how enthusiastic and what does their how does their experience role model how other leaders should then take it on board, and then allow it to permeate throughout the rest of the organization? So at the start, I definitely say most of them are really keen and enthusiastic. But it's like how do I how do I also feed them the seeds of like, this is what's happening in other organizations, because you know, there's that competitive angle, to help them to figure out how this fits in with everything else, and when they're time pressured. Why this is still why this should still remain on the top of their priority list and how they further encourage and engage other people to be involved in it as well.

Michael Glazer
It sounds like internalizing not only the value of the experience, but the spirit of what reverse mentoring represents both benefit wise and aspirationally for an organization is a core part of being able to not only sustain it, but to have it scale.

Patrice Gordon
Yes, absolutely.

Michael Glazer
I want to wrap up with with two questions, two questions that I ask all of my guests. And the first one Patrice is what what do you see as the greatest unmet well being need in the workplace today?

Patrice Gordon
I think it's about connection. So post pandemic, like, you know, you've got better up service talks about like people who don't feel connected at work, people who like would rather not be connected with the people at work, and people who really want to be connected with people at work. And so for me well being is about connection. Especially when we're talking about in a hybrid world when we're talking about you know, a lot of the work that I do is with the Gent with Gen Z and it's about them entering the workforce properly for the first time, and how things that we maybe took for granted being like seasoned, seasoned corporate employees. But what does that look like now especially being like digital natives, and now heading into a space where it may not actually be the Digital First, it's more people first. But really that connection and building authentic connection within an organization where people are more like people's opinions or views are more polarized than ever. And now we're living our lives at work as well. So like, historically, we maybe didn't have the opportunity to bring all of our viewpoints and opinions to the office. But now we have no option but to write because it's just weaved into every part of our being now. And so connecting at a deeper level, from a pace of like honesty and transparency, but also with respect, that all feeds into that connection piece for me.

Michael Glazer
And if you can change one thing to make that connection piece more of a reality,

Patrice Gordon
What I'm gonna say reverse mentoring. And,

Michael Glazer
Of course, why wouldn't you say reverse mentoring?

Patrice Gordon
But I think, you know, it's, it's human first, you know, the name of this podcast, working with humans, like I always say, like, leaders just be more human. And the paper, work the process and the policy is fantastic. And you need that to lead big organizations. But if you go for a people first bringing, bringing your whole self to work, being clear with your people, what your vulnerabilities are, where you know, that you need to develop, and to just be open and honest and transparent, I think a great deal of this responsibility sits with leaders right 90% of it because they need to open the doors, they need to take the responsibility, they need to be open. They need to build for the future which is outside of themselves. So yeah, that's what I would say. You've almost

Michael Glazer
Asked yourself the final question that want to ask you Patrice, which is, what does the phrase working with humans mean to you?

Patrice Gordon
Make work more human, be more human like bring bring as much of yourself to work as you feel comfortable in doing I always say, and, but it's recognizing people's individuality and respecting that and acknowledging that you have these wide policies. But actually the one on one interaction those conversations etc just will mean so much more to people to feel like seen and heard and valued. And I think everyone just needs to create bit more time to do that.

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