Episode 114: Improv for Wellbeing

Can improv help us unlock workplace success? In this episode, we explore the positive impact of improvisation on well-being, communication, and the nuances of our daily interactions. Patricia Ryan Madson, Stanford University Emerita and author of “Improv Wisdom,” provides insights on how improv maxims can enhance the way we connect, create, and engage at work – and in life.

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Episode Highlights

• Learn how simple acts of noticing and acknowledging others can have outsized effects on their well-being and yours.
• Find out how the maxim of "Yes, And" can enhance teamwork, creativity, and problem-solving.
• Uncover strategies for tackling common fears and anxieties in the workplace through the lens of improv.
• Explore how the practices of improv can sharpen your mindfulness and presence.
• Hear advice for applying improv principles in many aspects of daily life.
• Learn how to cultivate gratitude for the often-overlooked contributions of others.
• Discover how improvisation can be a powerful tool for navigating change and uncertainty.
• Use improv to improve your communication skills, making you a better listener and collaborator.
• Hear how the ethos of improv can help build a work environment where every voice is heard and valued.

Patricia’s view on the greatest unmet wellbeing need at work today

“I think that the greatest need is to discover the concept of ‘enough’. I think the workplace and the mania for pushing forward for more and greater, this need in our consumer world, that in order to keep going, everything has to grow and grow. I think we need to say enough. And to find space, and to slow down, and to do less.

I think our world would be a lot better, certainly businesses would be, if instead of just looking at the bottom line as the measure of success, more companies would see that the health of the world depends upon all of us being able to slow down a little more, respect each other, maybe not consume as much.

I just turned 81. And so, I am looking at trying to notice how my world has so many things that I’ve been collecting over the years, and realizing that it’s hard to get off that ‘let’s get some more stuff’ wagon. But I’m a proponent now of every day trying to find something that I can rehome or give away, or find a different home for, rather than just adding more. So, the concept of enough and slowing down would be what I would wish for our workplaces.”

What "working with humans" means to Patricia

“‘Working with humans’ is a reminder somehow that we’re all in this together. And that there’s no way that I can really thrive and succeed if I’m trying to do it on my own. So working with humans means shifting that in fact, as I was thinking about that, my eyes kind of rolled back in my head and I felt myself sort of go into me, but it’s I need to shift the attention so that I’m working with humans meaning never forget all of the others and my place in that to be helpful to them, to try to cause them less trouble and to make it work by doing my part.”

Resources

Read:  Improv Wisdom: Don't Prepare, Just Show Up

Full Transcript

Note: This is an unedited AI-generated transcription. Please excuse any errors or inconsistencies.

Michael Glazer
I'm curious to know a little bit about how your experiences in improv theater have impacted your own personal well being.

Patricia Ryan Madsen
It's a great question because that's the area that most interests me is how improv is can be opened some doors for everyday life. I think it the Maxim's that make improv work helped me to not get in my own way. So that one of the Maxim's is just show up. And one thing to try to prepare carefully for whatever you're doing, and sometimes just mess with ourselves when we worry too much and we prepare too much. So the improvisers advice is step onto the stage. Do what's the next thing so we only have what's right in front of us. And I think so improv has helped me show up step into arenas that I didn't seem to have any particular competency in. I'm often invited by business groups to talk about how improv can help us with the bottom line and, and be better merchants or whatever. But improv really is about shifting the attention from yourself onto the other. And so now I'm happy to report that your face is very big on my screen, and there's really little so that helps when we're equal on the screen sometimes that you have attention to look at myself, rather than remember who I'm with and why I'm here. So improv has helped me do stuff I wouldn't do otherwise. Can you give an example? Yeah, I'm a very bad artist. But I love doing it. And I have a group of friends. That's called Bad Art Night. And we get together on a Friday night and bring our supplies projects. And because we know we can all do bad art. There's something about that little mind twist, that opens the door to doing things. So, arts, one of the things that I've done, the others getting interested in sports, my husband is a great devotee of all Stanford sports, we go to basketball, soccer, women's volleyball, football, and somehow that wouldn't have that those things would have been my choice of how to spend most of the week. But improv has allowed me to show up and see what's there. Look with new eyes. I think sometimes I have had preconceptions about how something's going to be. And an improviser sort of starts fresh, without any expectation or any end point.

Michael Glazer
So is that a conscious process to realize that you have a preconceived notion or expectation? And then there's something that happens internally, where you deliberately release it to create this potential for new possibility?

Patricia Ryan Madsen
Yeah, I think you've just said it. And an interesting way that if I notice that my mind is playing games with me, or I'm saying, unsupportive things, I can just remind myself that's not necessary. And so it is a little bit of a shift, you have to notice that your that your inner monologue is unsupportive, and then say, I don't need that.

Michael Glazer
This sounds…a lot like mindfulness.

Patricia Ryan Madsen
Oh, there's a lot of mindfulness and improv. It's true. In fact, one of my former students has written a book called playful mindfulness, where he looks right at that intersection, he might be a great guest for your show. By the way, Ted de may zone is his name. And somehow, there's a big misconception that improvisation is about comedy. I think that's the first thing when they hear the word you ever have, oh, I could never do that. I couldn't just jump on stage and do something. But the truth is, we're improvising all the time, all of your podcast if their conversations are improvised, everyday speech is improvisation. We don't think about it as that. But it is. And so when we realize that when we allow ourselves to follow the thought, rather than try to perfect it before we utter it, we liberate ourselves. I think your recent guests was Matt Abrams, that Think fast talk smart, and he's a colleague and a good friend. And he gives a lot of this same advice has been keys, he has gathered some of the improv ideas and put them into practice for helping people with communication skills.

Michael Glazer
Speaking of communication skills, and also something that you said right off the bat, which is about having that improv is about focusing on the other person as opposed to focusing on ourselves. Can you share a little bit about how embracing the principles of improv have impacted you or change the way that you experience that The joys and the challenges of working with others.

Patricia Ryan Madsen
Oh, great. Well, it's, I sometimes give myself a little exercise when I'm out in the world shopping, for example. And I stopped and in a grocery store and put their things on the wheel and the clerk, I always first noticed the clerk's name and address them. Hi, Marge, how's it going today? Have you been working very long? Gosh, how many hours? Do you have to stand on your feet? I noticed that what a nice haircut you have. So I try to engage with every day, people that I encounter, so that I'm not just standing in line worrying about what's the next thing I'm supposed to do? Or an email, I forgot to answer, that it's when I'm in the world with people. And that has been harder during the COVID times because we're more likely to not be in social situation. But whenever I'm out in the world, I make it a point to notice what other people are doing, especially the many people who are serving us who are doing things that make our lives possible.

Michael Glazer
One sounds like no, the scene is the first half of it. But then acting on it saying something the engaging part is also at least equally as important.

Patricia Ryan Madsen
I think so too. Yeah, attention to what's going on noticing. Because I'm always looking for some clue some way to have something to say that isn't just isn't just chit chat, but something about them if I can find it. So paying attention, accepting the reality, we're in and appreciating the circumstance. And then acting on it. It says, I think of those as the four A's attention, acceptance, appreciation, and then action, and then I say something or try to engage. And some clerks really enjoy that. That conversation that comes from someone not simply putting their credit card in the slot, but being interested. And I am interested, because it's the people that are standing on their feet for long periods of time that make it possible for me to come home with a bag of groceries. Yeah, yeah,

Michael Glazer
I can relate. I recently went for my annual physical checkup. And the nurse who took my blood said, as they typically do, you're going to feel a little stick here. And I said to her, actually, you're good, I didn't feel anything. And just that small comment that can tell me the, it puts a big smile on her face.

Patricia Ryan Madsen
It's a big difference when we noticed the contributions of others had a similar circumstance when we were at the airport, on one of the airport shuttles where the driver would stop and pull over and bring the luggage in, get back and drive a little bit and come back. And I was watching how carefully he did everything to keep us all safe, and deal with the traffic and all luggage and the complicated things that his job entailed. And when I finally got off and got our luggage and gave him a little chip, I said, you know, doing a really good job. This is kind of complicated. And he just stopped and seemed so shocked and delighted. It was like no one had ever said to him, you're doing a good job. I think that ought to be our mantra, look around and say to people, you're doing a good job. Yeah. And notice, not in a generic way. But why is that? So?

Michael Glazer
It's amazing how such simple other incentives can have such an outsized difference for other people. Yes,

Patricia Ryan Madsen
It's true. We sometimes think these things but don't take the extra step of saying them. Yeah, you're right. Little can go a long way, especially people that are in service as listening to a customer service rep who is helping me with some problem with an order and in the background. I heard a rooster crowing. So I said, Excuse me, is that a rooster in your area? She's Oh, yes. I'm so so sorry. I just know it's delightful. It brought me a kind of joy to imagine and I asked her where she was sitting and she said, Well, I can't really say but it is off shore.

Michael Glazer
So, the payoff for noticing is just a connection with somebody else...I want to shift a little bit because I've read your book and I know there are 13 improv Maxim's in your book improv wisdom, don't prepare just show up and I want to talk about those two Maxim's in particular, but before that, you chose to frame these as Maxim's rather than, say rules. So you explain a little bit about that choice.

Patricia Ryan Madsen
Wow, that's a fabulous question, because that was a big part of how the design and the purpose of the book I finally came together, I had a wonderful editor with Random House who we thought about this, and we tried a variety of different things. The reality is they aren't rules, a rule has a certain kind of finality to it. And there were certain other words that didn't seem to that the word Maxim has the notion that there is, there is some truth or some wisdom that is approachable. And that might give us some guidance. So Maxim seemed like a much better idea to rather than the principles or the rules, or the what you have to do 10 guidelines or something, but maximum kind of fit, and it and I've logged it over the over time, because it increasingly seems to me to better rep, the word better represents what these 13 ideas are. And they're all ideas that are possible that are actionable. I would never tell you to try to feel something, for example, because we can't really control our feelings, we can control our behavior and our actions when we do what we say. So an improviser Can, can start anywhere, without a particular plan, just show up and then look really carefully at where they are, and see if what offer may come to them. And their offers are everywhere.

Michael Glazer
Can you explain a little bit about what the maximum of just show up means and how practicing it does create these offers?

Patricia Ryan Madsen
It's a physical thing, just showing up means get your body to where you need to be. Sometimes we play with our minds about I need to get an need to get prepared in a certain way. And I'm not quite motivated. There's a word that that improvisers I don't really need. We don't need motivation. But we do need to get our body somewhere. So if for example, we want to exercise more, instead of trying to feel like I want to go to the gym, I will, you know, get my gym shorts on, get in the car, drive the four miles to the gym, and walk in the door. So there's something about physically putting ourselves where we need to be. If we're if we need to write and work on our book, we need to sit down at the computer or with a legal pad. That's the way we work. So it's also it's a reminder that you don't need, you don't need motivation. You do need the havior to start things and often, confidence follows. Success follows when you we often have had the experience of getting not wanting to go to the gym in that earlier example. But we go there. When we finished our workout. There's a sense of satisfaction. Yeah, that wasn't there in advance. And so it's putting the power of behavior first. And physically noticing where you are.

Michael Glazer
That seems easier said than done. I'm just thinking about times where I felt unmotivated to do some pain. And yeah, sometimes I just do it. But other times, the state of being unmotivated is a little bit too much for me to overcome at that time. So that we get past that?

Patricia Ryan Madsen
Well, part of it is that you think you need to feel better about doing it, I think you start by changing that mindset, that you that, while feeling like doing something as always nice. It's always helpful. We have so many examples of our in our lives of we know when a child is crying that we don't wait to feel like going to help them out. I think it's shifting out of the notion of working on our motivation in order to get our life in order. At that point where it's like, well, sometimes Yeah, I just, I, you say something like how I just can't, I can't do that today. And that's a lie. You the better phrasing would be, I'm not going to do that today. Or I didn't do that today, which shows the actionable part, but can't puts us in a position that we need to get that motivation going before something else. And that's just not true.

Michael Glazer
Saying can't is like for fitting our own agency and you're saying that's a lie.

Patricia Ryan Madsen
That's a lie. Yeah, that's beautiful way to put it. Yeah. Because we have that agency. And I think that's part of what improv teaches us that we, we don't need to know what the we don't even know need to know what's the direction he has, but we need to start and once we've got our foot in the GM or our foot See our hands on the keyboard writing, or whatever? Or making that call? That's a difficult one. Once we're engaged in it, everything changes from the sort of mind of how is this going to work where we're working, spinning stories in our mind, about outcomes?

Michael Glazer
I want to ask you about the maximum of don't prepare. And in particular, I know this is another rule, it's not an absolute. How do you balance? How do you Patricia balance, the maximum don't prepare with something like performance anxiety, whether it's for a theatrical performance, or for people in the workplace, something that they need to do in front of or with or for other people.

Patricia Ryan Madsen
One true thing. And disclaimer here, “don't prepare” is not true. It's a lie in a way. But I need to start with that idea. Because the truth is, we can't not prepare minds prepare, there's almost no way to say, well, I'm going to give this speech, well, I'm not going to think about it, I'm not going to do anything, I will just show up and it'll happen naturally. That's the don't prepare here is really means don't let your preparation get in the way of showing up and being there 100%. What's so commonly happens is that we prepare, and then we show up and do our preparation. Rather than communicate in whatever way we need to be, I suggest go ahead, write your speech out, make an outline, do whatever helps your mind get organized. And then tuck that in your briefcase and show up, look at the people who are there, notice what's actually going on in the room. Because there, there may be some way that you really connect with maybe the room is a little bit is particularly beautiful, or it's a little warm that day. Somehow, we don't want to what I really want to say is don't let your preparation get in the way of showing up and be mindful that a rehearsed and delivered speech can never be as effective as natural human speech. It sounds different. When someone is doing their script. We all know what it sounds like. And I think, don't prepare, just show up is also encouragement to trust your own voice, that what you your whole life is a preparation for this particular moment or this question. So if I were to write that chapter again, I'd say okay, prepare, go ahead, prepare, I, in fact, I don't know how to not prepare. I can't stop my mind from doing things that relate to some project or speech and giving. But then, when the moment comes, set it aside trust that all that preparation, just as part of you, your life prepares you for this moment in this question.

Michael Glazer
My hunch is that letting go of that is about switching our mental arrow from pointing to ourselves to pointing to other people. What do you think?

Patricia Ryan Madsen
Perfect. That's, that's such a great image too because it is that self focus that sort of how am I doing and what did they think of me? That's the non helpful voice. Yeah, it's about them. When I'm, when I teach an improv class, the very first thing I say most important thing you all need to know in this class. It's not about you. So I want you to turn to notice who's sitting next to you, I want you by the end of this class, I need you to know their names and something about them. The more we're interested in, in the people in our world, the better we'll be as improvisers and I think our life will grow. It's that self focus. That is not a bugaboo.

Michael Glazer
Yeah, one of the pieces of advice you give in this part of the book is, instead of working from a script, when you're delivering a speech, it's to make notes in the forms of questions to yourself so that it will prompt you to say whatever needs to be said, as you just put it, Patricia, right, in a natural way, authentic way.

Patricia Ryan Madsen
Perfect. I think there's that we can respond to a question, if the first note I have is who do I thank for being here? That will bring in my mind. If that's the first thing I want to say that will set me on a path or who else who else knows the topic that I'm going to talk about? And so asking yourself questions as notes, I think is a kind of a trick for not just making bullet points, and certainly not writing out. If you want to write the whole thing out like a speech in a play. Go ahead.

Michael Glazer
You're just saying resist The temptation to deliver it that way.

Patricia Ryan Madsen
Sadly,yeah. Deliberately, this notion of delivering effectively is not our friend.

Michael Glazer
When you're teaching improv students, does the topic of confronting their own fear come into the conversation? And if it does, when and how?

Patricia Ryan Madsen
Sure. And it often is part of the first class, you know, how many are a little nervous about being here? Well, I hope so, golly, that's, that is one of the greatest human fears there. I think in the book, I, there's a Hindu list. Five human fears, fear of death, fear of loss of reputation, fear of loss of consciousness, and for value, and then fear of speaking in front of people humans want to be liked. And there is a natural fear of any kind of presentation. So my suggestion is, congratulations, you're normal, that's great. But what we want to want to point out is you don't have to let that fear. Get in the way of getting to class on time, when you get here, find out something about one of the other people in the room, become interested in each other. Many of the improv games are about accessing your partner's wisdom, or helping make their story makes sense. And this kind of work is really valuable, I think, in corporate settings, where we're often there to sort of show off our individual creativity and the good idea that we've got, I think, great team players mind the ideas and the of their fellows and the people that they work with, and are constantly looking for ways to contribute to what's already going on. If that makes sense. Yeah,

Michael Glazer
Perfectly. And for people listening, what are one or two things that they can do to learn about their colleagues and draw out what they're bringing into the team or the project?

Patricia Ryan Madsen
I think it's first, the first thing is really listening, where often we often find ourselves in a meeting where we're thinking of what we're going to say when it comes to be our turn and kind of preparing somehow, and we're not really listening. I think that the first step in, in this kind of communication I'm talking about is listen is if what your partner is saying or what the other people are saying, is the most important thing in the world. We often use the phrase, your partner's a genius. Imagine that everybody that you're working with, really, they've got it, and your job is to help nurture and develop whatever it is. That's where we go to the the probably the fundamental principle of improv, which is maximum effect is yes, yes. And I think most people who've heard anything about improv Oh, yeah, that's the Yes. And thing. What does that mean? Of course, we crush you can't say yes to everything in life. That's crazy. It's there's a lot of stuff that needs that needs fixing. And there's a lot of stuff I don't like that improvisers make a pact with themselves. And the grips that they're working with, that their rule of thumb is to accept is to open to what's there. Rather than come at it with our natural criticism of what's going on, we often are listening for what's not right about what's happening. And so, improvisers listened for the detail, and they're gonna find something to mine to help develop. And it's not just agreeing, but it's adding to Yes, and that's the part of it. It's really powerful.

Michael Glazer
So, to me, this suggests that if somebody presents an idea, they say, an idea that in a business setting, you think is unrealistic, it's not going to work. You can think that and at the same time, you can Yes, and that by finding the part of their idea that is amazing, or fascinating, or unique or grounded on evidence, or wherever you see the merit of it, and say what I like about that idea, and tell them that, and then you add as you the end part, then you add or build on it.

Patricia Ryan Madsen
This is exactly true. It's a perfect example of one of the examples I use is that a child comes in so Mother and says, Mommy, I want a pony. Can I have a pony? And of course, they can't have a pony. But if mommy listens to that, it says a poverty. I didn't know you're interested in ponies? Well, we could go to the library and get some books on ponies. And I believe in halfmoon Bay, there's a pony farm maybe let's go and so rather than shooting down the idea of can I have it? What is the kernel of good in the idea that's impossible. And building on that so we look or what's Yeah, the kernel of good in something that's clearly not going to work. Because there often is that genius that happens, can come with an idea that's clearly off the wall.

Michael Glazer
What I'm taking away from this is that there's really two things for us to do. One is to be open to different ideas. And the second is to exercise to bring curiosity into our listening, so that we're actually paying attention and mindful of where the good might be, as opposed to what for all the reasons why it won't work or can't work, and you don't want to do it or something like that, or the fear for that matter.

Patricia Ryan Madsen
I think they're coming from the negative is such a natural human response. And me we can we could talk about why that's so you could go back to the caveman, they needed to be on guard for anything for their life. So we're to find out what's wrong with what's coming at us is natural. So it's a new mindset that we're trying to cultivate when we hear something before we shoot it down. We look for where the where the juiciest, where, where the goodness is, I have a little note on my desk that says find the good and praise it. So it's looking with an eye to what's what's right about this. Yeah. And then finding a way to add to it, to appreciate it to send a thank you note or to to let the light in. Somehow. Yeah,

Michael Glazer
It reminds me of what Ken Blanchard says, which is to catch people doing things right – and then telling them.

Patricia Ryan Madsen
Wonderful.

Michael Glazer
Yeah, exactly...I want to ask you, there's a couple of other maxim's I want to get to, if that's okay with you. One of them is face the facts, which is about accepting the reality of a scene or a situation as it unfolds and not denying or contradicting established details. And one of the reasons I'm interested in this is it seems and I know I'm guilty of this at times that our egos want to protect us from doing this from time to time. So how can we overcome that tendency when we have it?

Patricia Ryan Madsen
That's a tricky one. You're right, somehow seeing the facts and accepting them facing them is different. It's so easy, when there's something we don't like, just to come at it with a block. I don't have any magic pills for that. But I wanted to point out that improvisers need to look at the landscape of what is actually going on. And rather than it's not just to be goofy, oh, isn't everything wonderful? And say yes, it'd be nice and fun. And like everybody, it's not that at all, you have to, I think to be a good improviser, you have to notice the detail of what is really going on. Putting an example in the book is that face the facts, that potato chip are fattening just because I liked them and wish it wasn't. So there are consequences to some things that we do or don't do. So allow that those realities of the world to be part of your landscape.

Michael Glazer
And when we're practicing that, say, in a situation where we're having a disagreement with somebody else, we act on the maxim of facing the facts.

Patricia Ryan Madsen
Well, I think what we want to do is use that noticing what is right about their point of view, it's somehow crossing the line from just stating the obvious that the way I see it is this and that's all that it is the way you see it is that I certainly can't solve all the world's problems. I do wish everybody were improvisers. Somebody New York Times they asked me if I was president, what would I do? And I said, Well, I'd get all the the House and the Senate and the judiciary into a weeklong improv workshop where they'd have to say yes to each other, and see what it's like to go along with the plan. So if you're predisposed to be looking for what's right, when we get to those thorny points, where there, there isn't a clear and easy solution. We accept that too. But I think that improv invites us to still see our partners and our comrades in a full in a holistic light.

Michael Glazer
This is you know, being firm with the facts, but flexible with people.

Patricia Ryan Madsen
That's a good way to put it. Yeah.

Michael Glazer
Which actually brings up a different Maxim which is take care of each other. Yeah. Right. Based on this maxim, how do we practice take care of each other when things aren't hunky dory?

Patricia Ryan Madsen
Well, we look for what's obvious. That's nice. Good. There's a wonderful book, the title that's escaping me now about how during the San Francisco earthquake, all of the all that huge disaster brought out the best in the citizens and how they began to look for what needed to be done, and do it and help each other, that there's some way that in the worst of times, it can trigger our better nature to see what is possible, rather than focusing on just how bad it is, I mean, certainly, if we watch the news today, so much of the world is in chaos and turmoil, and there's so much that's needed, I think, a good question to ask, is there something that I can do, perhaps maybe there's a contribution we can make to an organization that is taking food to allow us to juice or that somehow it's focusing on? Is there anything I can do? Rather than Is there any way I can make myself feel better?

Michael Glazer
So again, the focus comes back to action versus right as we as opposed to something like I am what I feel.

Patricia Ryan Madsen
Yeah, be improviser is an action-based character. And they learned that they don't, that the action that they take will give them a new perspective on where they are, so they'll know what needs to come next. We don't have to think our way to the end of the story. Good improvisers have no idea how a story is going to end when they jump on stage two. But they know they're going to keep building on what the partner has just done, and trying to be helpful or useful in contributing what's needed.

Michael Glazer
And so, if somebody has faith, that's going to happen, the other maximum that comes into my mind is to wake up to the gifts

Patricia Ryan Madsen
That's my favorite. By the way,

Michael Glazer
Can you explain what it is and why it's your favorite?

Patricia Ryan Madsen
Yeah, it's a different perspective on life. Really, it's a big, it's a, to me, it's a big principle. It's starting to notice the detail in the world that we're in right now. Notice the detail of what other people are doing, that we benefit from? Well, right now, you are taking your time, they're sitting in Tokyo, to talk with me and create this, you personally are my benefactor right now. And the electric company in El Granada, California. That's, that is allowing this machine to, for us to see each other. Someone right now is working in that plant that is making this possible move. Someone created and designed the computer that I'm talking to you on that was a real person. I don't know their name in particular. But it wasn't just something abstract. So waking up to the gifts is starting to look at the world, not from what's wrong with this picture. But how am I being supported by others now, and in the past? I think it tells the story that I went to Japan and went for a week to a monastery and has studied a practice called Nikon. And Nikon I think literally translated means looking inside in or looking. And the questions that I set for a week and in periods of time, where I would try to get answers to the questions of what I had received from a particular person, what I had given back to them and the trouble in bother that I caused them. Which is not a question we usually asked very often we know a lot about the trouble and bother other people cause us that's not part of the practice. So we start with our mother and our Father, and then we move through our life in time. And the idea is to begin to see, I'm going back to it's not about me, somehow I'm here, thanks to the literally the work and the efforts of so many others. But the practice itself invites you to particularize that rather than just thinking, Oh, so many people do a lot for me. That's a sort of a cop out, you need to know who are those people? And how are they in what particular way? Are you benefiting? And are you doing anything for them? Or is there might not be anything I can well maybe I can pay my electric bill. That's part of that's not very much but to help that guy who's working back at pizza you need to allow us to see each other. Waking up to the gifts is noticing the detail the specific ways in which others contribute to us and appreciating it. And it's different from a kind of a From a gratitude practice, gratitude is often about how I feel about some. I like the fact that I'm grateful for a nice warm bed that I get to sleep in and feels good. But perhaps I hadn't thought about the person who designed and in fabricated these free sheets that I had sleeping in. But somebody did that. And I'm able to, I was able to purchase these and sleep in a warm, free, she had bed, that there's a way that all of these things are kind of working to shift the attention off of the ego and on to the others in the world who are contributing to my welfare.

Michael Glazer
So for listeners who are interested in bringing more of this maximum into their daily lives, is there a piece of advice, or a suggestion that you can offer?

Patricia Ryan Madsen
Yeah, you could start a little start a notebook or a list somewhere and a couple of times a day think see if you can notice, thanks to whom, that this moment is happening. There might be a specific person, I would think if I'm thanks to whom am I here right now talking to you, I guess, Matt Abrams, recommended to you that you might enjoy a conversation with me. Yeah. And I'm thankful to him. Because one of my former students who is teaching with him, Adam Tobin introduced me so I can find a chain of people thanks to whom any moment happens. So you might have a little game you might play. It's fun to write it down, actually. But or to stop when you're in a grocery line, and you're stuck for a little bit. While you're waiting. You might look around and ask yourself, thanks to who? Who else is making this moment possible for me? And it shifts your attention off of how am I doing? What's going on for me on to the world that is this vast web of people doing their job from which I benefit? Does that make sense? perfectly, perfectly.

Michael Glazer
And it's not only shifting that focus and focusing on the positive, but thinking about people in not just physical distance, but conceptual distance to where we are at any moment in time. So somebody three or four, six or eight degrees of separation, can be contributing to my happiness or my possibility in any given moment.

Patricia Ryan Madsen
Absolutely. And it shifts the attention from a kind of feeling based response. An example I use is that if I'm at a restaurant, and the waitress happens to be having a bad day, she sort of Surly and she didn't feel my coffee as fast as I would like. And she didn't, she wasn't very polite. So it's very easy to sort of discount that she's having a bad day. So what and miss the reality that on her bad day, when she's not having a good day, she brought me food, and I'm able to eat this food and live and sustain myself that my physical life actually is being served by this waitress. And isn't it even more amazing that she's doing that? If she seems to be having a bad day, something very sad to be going on her life? I don't know. But instead of instead of feeling gratitude, just for things we like, it's looking at what is it about the world that I'm in? That that supports me? And whenever I can I try to, to add to my action would be to thank them or let them know I notice what they're doing.

Michael Glazer
So it's like a systematic reframe of how we experience our lives. Absolutely.

Patricia Ryan Madsen
It really is like, had you ever heard the word Nikon in Japan did that when

Michael Glazer
Not before I read your book, but when I read it, and then read what that means the kanji immediately popped up in my head. Oh, that's what it is. Yeah.

Patricia Ryan Madsen
Yeah. And the third question there the trouble and bother I cause others is a really revelatory one, because it's certainly never one I had ever asked. And it was, it's not an easy question to think because I don't mean to cause trouble Of course, I'm a nice person, etcetera. But when I, when I actually try to find an answer to that I can find ways that my neglect is causing trouble to others or holding a position that is difficult. I sometimes just don't listen to my husband. I cause him trouble when I don't. I am all justified about why I don't need to. He's saying something already. No, no. But if you are aware of the fact that our actions and the manner of our actions can be troublesome to other people, it may give you guidance about things, I don't like that. So I may want to change how I do some, or I may want to apologize for not listening very carefully.

Michael Glazer
It seems that it's a pathway to humility and empathy.

Patricia Ryan Madsen
I like that. I think that's hopefully true.

Michael Glazer
Thinking, thinking the level of depth, and earnestness about how we have caused trouble. And in Japanese, we have a very specific word for this may walk or cockatoo, it makes us Yeah, and that awareness often makes a difference in how I view and interact in different relationships, and sometimes with myself, and

Patricia Ryan Madsen
Also the Eat to ducky mas, which literally means line, notice that I'm receiving some, which is different from a prayer or a grace, but that each document has shows that you are aware that whatever is coming to you, you're receiving the word receiving is, I think, really powerful. And I love that we use that at home is our beginning of our meal. Yeah. And

Michael Glazer
The way you the way you gesture there was by lowering your hands, as you said, if a document is so the idea is in Japanese, it's a type of humble speech, for the verb to receive. And so the concept is, it's coming from some place or some person who has a higher status than you. So we embody that feeling of humility, when we receive it. Yeah, and there is a certain aspect, I'll talk about myself when saying it. And there is a certain type of relationship dynamic that's caused when I when I use that word with other people, and when they use it. With me, I think it goes back to taking care of each other, which is I know one of the aspects of that is respectful environment. And it's a word in Japanese that we can use to create a more respectful environment.

Patricia Ryan Madsen
I think the Japanese have a lot of this, right, these ideas are maybe a little more a little more revolutionary to the Western or the American psyche. led to so I'm grateful for the things that I was able to learn in Japan. And to reframe how I'm looking at how things are, through this lens of Nikon, I was kind of I've been working on a second book for a long time. That's working title is radical gratitude, which is about this to try to take this as concept and see if I can't find new exercises and ways to expand that just found it. It's changed my life. And my marriage to my husband also has done Nikon and we kind of both get it. And as, as soon as we find ourselves maybe a little annoyed with the other, we are able to quickly realize what we were receiving and how we're causing the other person trouble. Yeah, yeah.

Michael Glazer
I love that idea of doing it, practicing it with somebody else, as opposed to doing this on our own.

Patricia Ryan Madsen
Right, yeah, get a partner, an icon buddy.

Michael Glazer
I want to wrap things up, going back to the theme that we started things off with, which is well being and I'm going to ask you with your permission, two questions that I ask all the guests on the podcast. The first one is, what do you see as the greatest unmet well being need in the workplace today?

Patricia Ryan Madsen
Well, being in the workplace? Oh, yes. I think that the greatest need is to discover the concept of enough. I think, the workplace that the mania for pushing forward for more and greater this need in our consumer world that in order to keep going, everything has to grow and grow, I think we need to say enough. And to find space, and to slow down and to do less. I think our world would be a lot better certainly businesses would be if instead of just looking at the bottom line is the measure of success, that more companies would see that the health of the world depends upon all of us being able to slow down a little more respect each other. Maybe not consume as much. I just turned 81 And so I am looking at trying to notice how my world has so many things that I've been collecting over the years, and realizing that it's hard to get off that let's get some more stuff. The wagon. But I'm a proponent now of every day trying to find something that I can rehome or giveaway, or find a different home for rather than just adding more. So the concept of enough and slowing down would be what I would wish for our workplaces.

Michael Glazer
And finally, Patricia, what does the phrase working with humans mean to you?

Patricia Ryan Madsen
Working with humans? Oh, working with humans? Well, humans are crazy animals. And I think working with humans, is a reminder somehow that we're all in this together. And that there's no way that I can really thrive and succeed if I'm trying to do it on my own. So working with humans means shifting that in fact, as I was thinking about that, my eyes kind of rolled back in my head and I felt myself sort of go into me, but it's I need to shift the attention so that I'm working with humans meaning never forget all of the others and my place in that to be helpful to them, to try to cause them less trouble and to make it work by doing my part.

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